Misconceptions and Borrowed Concepts

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

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Burninglight
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Misconceptions and Borrowed Concepts

Post #1

Post by Burninglight »

Did Allah and Muhammad understand the concept of the Christianity trinity and did Islam borrow the concept of heaven and hell from Christianity?

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Post #31

Post by Burninglight »

10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Burninglight]

I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Saying the hail Mary is a form of worship; praying to Mary to put in a good word to God or Jesus for you is a form of idolatry; considering Mary the mother of God when God is her creator is a form of worship. Muhammad felt that way about Catholicism and Biblical Christians do as well. You can put that in the bank.
That doesn't mean that Catholics won't go to heaven because they believe and trust Jesus for their salvation, but putting faith in Mary and saints will disappoint you.

Can you explain what your signature means?
And biblical christians worship the bible. You see you don't get to tell others what it is they are worshiping unless others have reciprocal rights to tell you what you worship. See how that works?
Oh it won't disappoint me.
It's a line from a song.
Biblical Christianity is not the worship of the Bible, but it is the worship of the word of God who is Jesus. He is worthy of worship. No saints are worth of worship and there is nothing Scriptural that states we should pray to saints either and yes that includes Mary. If you pray to saints, you will be disappointed. Finally, being Catholic for 30 years has nothing to do with what is Scriptural or not
Never said it was but you had the gall to tell me what I believed. So I'm telling you that biblical christians worship the bible, live with it.
You never said it was; then why bring it up? I was Catholic for about as long as you. I know what Catholics believe.
I haven't told you what you believe; you are telling me what you believe. You said Catholics don't worship Mary. Perhaps you should give me your definition of worship, and while you are at it, show Scriptural justification for praying to Mary or saints asking them to seek God's favor as if she or they were departed intercessors for living believers on earth. Jesus is the only Biblical intercessor I know of and trust in. I don't need departed saints. Why do you?
Can't you read what is written? You seem to see things that are not there on your screen. Go back and read what I have written and then make a response to that.
You are not saying what it is you think I am seeing that is not there. Look, let's nip this thing.
I am not telling you what you believe; I am telling you simply that there is no Scriptural justification for praying to Mary as if she were an intercessor of some sought. It makes no never mind if you consider it worship or not. If a Muslim accuses Catholics of idolatry for praying to departed saints, they don't have a leg to stand on. You go back and read and answer my questions or change the topic.
you are loved

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Post #32

Post by HaLi8993 »

@ Burninglight
Hali: firstly nothing.

I never said Muslims claimed Muhammad was or is equal with Allah. I said they associate him with Allah in the second part of the shahada. Why do you deny the obvious?

True Christianity doesn't allow for the worship of Mary as the mother of God. Catholics are in error over this. And Islam is a reaction to Catholicism. Even Catholics don't consider Mary God; this is Allah's misconception and Muhammad's invention saying Christians ascribe partners unto to God. Where do you see Christians saying they do that or where do you find it in the Bible? The Best of Deceivers is lying to Muslims telling them we believe in things we don't to keep you in deception. When Muslims see the truth and leave Islam, Muslims seek to do an honor killing!

Now, I will prove to you the points I was trying to make using your Scriptures. Look at S. 5 73: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah..."

Notice, Allah is saying of those (Christians) that they say Allah is the third. Now when Allah questions Jesus we find out who the first and second are: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?"

A child can infer that the first is Jesus (Son) the second is Mary (mother) the third of three is Allah (father). if you cannot see this, you are being willfully ignorant and unnecessarily difficult and obtuse. How can I expect a Muslim to see truth when their god is the best of deceivers?

I AM not trying to be rude to you; I am trying to wake you up. Now lets get back to the association in the second part or the shahada, don't tell me I don't understand the concept. I know you mean Muhammad is Allah's prophet or slave apostle, but that is not the point. He is still mentioned in association.

Now here is the tricky part. I can make an argument that Islam sees Muhammad equal with Allah with the following verses of Islamic belief: [Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah. If anyone turns away, We did not send you [Muhammad] to them as their keeper.] (An-Nisaa' 4:80)

Wow, did you catch that? To obey Muhammad is to obey Allah. it sounds like Muhammad is way up there in authority with Allah to me. Now you might say "Yea, but Allah gives Muhammad the directive for you to obey, but the verse doesn't say that. There is where we can see an association. The Sunnah is the interpretation, explanation of, and commentary on the Qur'an. Therefore, no believer, neither man nor woman, has any right to reject it:

[When Allah and His Messenger have decided something, it is not for any man or woman of the believers to have a choice about it. Anyone who disobeys Allah and His Messenger is clearly misguided.] (Al-Ahzab 33:36) Double wow: Looks like an association to me; it smells like one too. So, you Muslims better stop throwing rocks when you live in a glass houses.

[Whatever the Messenger gives you, you should accept, and whatever he forbids you, you should forgo. Have fear [and respect] of Allah � Allah is severe in retribution.] (Al-Hashr 59:7) Triple wow, my God tells me not to accept anything from a prophet until I test and try their spirit. Muhammad fails the test; in fact, so those Allah. Allah is not the God of Abraham, and the Quran speaks of a different Jesus; that is why Muslims are leaving Islam and coming to the truth who is Jesus Christ!
PS........ I look at the video I believe their daughter, because her God is no longer the best of deceivers!
Firstly Burninglight, you have made it clear that you dont understand the concept of associating partners with God, when one associates partners with God it means that one is making someone or something equal or above the status of God. You claim that Muslims do so in the second part of the shahada how is this so??? you still have failed to explain yourself, as you are full aware that we do not place Muhammad (peace be upon him) on the same or above status of God as Christians do with Jesus (peace be upon him).

The Quran is not in error in regards to Christians (Catholics) worshipping Mary, this is not something that can go undenied by the countless examples through History and even today. You cannot deny that many pray to Mary (which is an act of worship and no where justified in Scripture) and give her titles which resemble those that belong solely to God, they use Mary as a mediator. Mary is not God and her exaltation in the Catholic church has no foundation in your very own Scripture.

Furthermore Mary is not the mother of God as some claim. As only God, is eternal and had no mother or beginning (see John 1:1f). Therefore in essence, worshipping Mary is a form of idolatry. In the New Testament, Mary is never mentioned in a way that exalts her as is done in Catholicism. So again Catholics consider themselves Christian, so again I ask you, how can the Quran be wrong???

Now just to touch up on your constant accusations in regards to Muslims committing honor killings, in the name of Islam and  constant discreditation of Islam in your eyes. Let me turn the table, showing you that honor killings can be found in the Bible, and that the Bible is for honor killings! Hence by your own criteria, Christians will have to abandon their own book.
 
Let us now see the honor killings in the Bible:
 
Lev 21:9  And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
 
So note, if the priests daughter commits a bad sexual act, she is to be burned because of her fathers reputation, because it is against his honor. What will Christians say now? This is one example of honor killings in the Bible, in fact the act is ordered by the Bible itself.

Moving along, again let me point out your mistakes, firstly Surah 5:73 is dealing with the concept of trinity in which Christians have made up, as they have taken Jesus (peace be upon him) and his mother (peace be upon her) as gods besides Allah, thus making Allah the third in a trinity. When Jesus (peace be upon him) is questioned, it is on the day of Resseruction when he will be a witness against those that worshipped him without right, this Surah is not an explanation of what the trinity consists as you try to allude.

Moreover, Allah deceived his enemies such as the enemies of the prophets, to derail their plans, their evil plans. there is no evil in that, Allah helps and aids those that believe in Him. Allah does not deceive good people to harm them as Satan does, Allah just plots and plans on his enemies when they plan and plot against him, such as to kill his prophet or harm the Muslims without right.

As for the Shahada, again a child would understand simple linguistics, If I say: "The employer and his employee are doing a great job running the company." Am I implying that they both have the same authority or that im associating partners?? Certainly Not!!

As for Surah 4:80, Obeying the Messenger is Obeying Allah, Allah states that whoever obeys His servant and Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), obeys Allah, and whoever disobeys him, disobeys Allah. Verily, whatever the Messenger utters is not of his own desire, but a revelation inspired to him. This does not make them equal. Quran 53:2-4 is a clear refutation of this idea where it says:

 “Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him."

As for you second and third examples that have nothing to do with associating partners with God, unless you can prove it is, your interpretation is only what you wish it to be without any sound knowledge. You will not find anywhere in the religion of Islam that comes remotely close to associating partners with God, whereas when we compare the countless teachings of Chriatianity it is perfectly clear that Jesus (peace be upon him) is given the status of God.

Islam came to restore the original faith, the One Divine Religion of GOD All-Mighty to Mankind, which started with Adam and ended with Muhammad (peace be upon him).

 I advise you Burninglight, to read the books of aqeedah which explain Tawheed (the Oneness of Allah, and discuss its meaning and rulings, and also describe the various kinds of shirk in order to realize that Islam does not teach any association with God. 

This trinity in which the Christians believe is one of the things that lead to shirk, rather it is the essence of shirk. The trinity that the later Christians have fabricated has no evidence in reason and fitrah (the innate nature of man), and there is nothing to support it in the divinely-revealed Books which Allah sent down, rather it is the clergymen who gathered at the time of Constantine and enjoined upon the Christians this trinity and shirk which contradicts sound reasoning and religion… 

Associating partners with Allah, means to set up idols and false deities alongside Allah, granting them equal status to Allah, and to give them actions which are only reserved for God alone, such as worshipping them, making oaths to them, having fear and hope in them, and to sacrifice things in their name. All of this constitutes shirk, an example is the case of Jesus (peace be upon him) and those who set him up as a God, and invoke on him and pray to him, any person who does such a thing is guilty of associating partners with God, they are guilty of setting up a partner to the true God Allah. So unless you can prove that Islam teaches anything remotely close to this, we as Muslims do not associate partners with God, taking verses out of context and not understanding its meaning does not count as any evidence just wishful thinking.

Burninglight this ones for you:


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Post #33

Post by HaLi8993 »

@ 10CC
I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Again Catholics will deny they worship Mary, but who are we kidding, the Rosary is one example that is a major contradiction to pure Monotheism which Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to instruct man to follow and adhere too. The Rosary is basically saying that, the soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. Now I ask you who is the only One that is All-Knowing as to who will perish or not??. The answer is God All-Mighty not any saint or human can ever know this. As only God is All-Knowing. I ask Christians  to show me anywhere where you are told to trust in Mary, by reciting the Rosary to be saved. 

Furthermore, in fact, the word "Rosary" is not even a Bible term. How can any person obtain eternal life through Mary by reciting the Rosary??? When eternal life will be decided by none other than God. Giving any human the names and attributes of God is none other than blasphemy and associating partners with God. How can anyone believe that salvation is found in Mary? 

More to the point the Gospel of Jesus (peace be upon him) according to your very own scriptures,  has absolutely nothing to do with Mary. None of the Apostles ever mentioned Mary in their Epistles. Jesus (peace be upon him) never directed to recognize Mary. In fact, your very own scriptures  clearly states in Matthew 11:11 that there has never been a child born amongst women greater than John the Baptist. Now this would lead to another contradiction, and this would be of no suprise, because John the Baptist prepared the people for the coming of the Savior—Jesus (peace be upon him), the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world (John 1:29). Yet, Catholics sinfully worship Mary, bowing to her statue as if she's a god. 

One need only look at one rosary recital (a chaplet), a Catholic will recite 53 hail Marys!  just praising Mary! This is idolatry! So again the only one worthy of worship is God and nothing else.

May Allah guide you to the straight path, Amin

keithprosser3

Post #34

Post by keithprosser3 »

Re Mary, when Constantine decreed the official religion of Rome would be Christianity alone, there was a problem because traditionally in Rome, men followed religions headed by a God while women followed religions headed by a goddess. Thus the new religion required a female figure of god-like or near-god like stature for the women to worship and Mary would be the obvious choice.

Thus the near-divinity of Mary comes from the same place that the church got its language (Latin), its complex hierarchic structure and its male dominated priesthood - i.e. it's establishment in Rome as its official imperial religion, co-opting the existing religious infrastructure of the Empire. The incongruity of a very specifically Jewish cult centred on the promise of a small region of the levant as a homeland becoming the religion of a global empire was avoided by the simple expedient of suppressing the Bible, its authority nullified by placing authority in a leader, or Pope, instead.

I think.

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Post #35

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

It strikes me as hilarious that a Muslim (HaLi8993) will deny that a Catholic who has practised his religion for 30 years (10CC) knows what he is talking about when it comes to his own religion.

He claims that “Catholics will deny they worship Mary, but who are we kidding�. Yet when faced with his own religion’s association of Muhammad to allah (“I never said Muslims claimed Muhammad was or is equal with Allah. I said they associate him with Allah in the second part of the shahada. Why do you deny the obvious?�) he denies it in strenuous terms!
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

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Post #36

Post by 10CC »

HaLi8993 wrote: @ 10CC
I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Again Catholics will deny they worship Mary, but who are we kidding, the Rosary is one example that is a major contradiction to pure Monotheism which Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to instruct man to follow and adhere too. The Rosary is basically saying that, the soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. Now I ask you who is the only One that is All-Knowing as to who will perish or not??. The answer is God All-Mighty not any saint or human can ever know this. As only God is All-Knowing. I ask Christians  to show me anywhere where you are told to trust in Mary, by reciting the Rosary to be saved. 

Furthermore, in fact, the word "Rosary" is not even a Bible term. How can any person obtain eternal life through Mary by reciting the Rosary??? When eternal life will be decided by none other than God. Giving any human the names and attributes of God is none other than blasphemy and associating partners with God. How can anyone believe that salvation is found in Mary? 

More to the point the Gospel of Jesus (peace be upon him) according to your very own scriptures,  has absolutely nothing to do with Mary. None of the Apostles ever mentioned Mary in their Epistles. Jesus (peace be upon him) never directed to recognize Mary. In fact, your very own scriptures  clearly states in Matthew 11:11 that there has never been a child born amongst women greater than John the Baptist. Now this would lead to another contradiction, and this would be of no suprise, because John the Baptist prepared the people for the coming of the Savior—Jesus (peace be upon him), the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world (John 1:29). Yet, Catholics sinfully worship Mary, bowing to her statue as if she's a god. 

One need only look at one rosary recital (a chaplet), a Catholic will recite 53 hail Marys!  just praising Mary! This is idolatry! So again the only one worthy of worship is God and nothing else.

May Allah guide you to the straight path, Amin
Have you ever been a catholic? Do you have any inkling into the beliefs of catholics? I've never been a muslim but I know for a fact that muhammad was a paedophile I know for a fact that muslims worship muhammad and the koran. Are there anymore facts about muhammadism that you would like me to correct you on?
Don't tell ME what I used to believe, you wouldn't know anymore about catholic beliefs than you know what a tadpole thinks. :confused2:
I'll tell you everything I've learned...................
and LOVE is all he said

-The Boy With The Moon and Star On His Head-Cat Stevens.

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Post #37

Post by 10CC »

Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Burninglight]

I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Saying the hail Mary is a form of worship; praying to Mary to put in a good word to God or Jesus for you is a form of idolatry; considering Mary the mother of God when God is her creator is a form of worship. Muhammad felt that way about Catholicism and Biblical Christians do as well. You can put that in the bank.
That doesn't mean that Catholics won't go to heaven because they believe and trust Jesus for their salvation, but putting faith in Mary and saints will disappoint you.

Can you explain what your signature means?
And biblical christians worship the bible. You see you don't get to tell others what it is they are worshiping unless others have reciprocal rights to tell you what you worship. See how that works?
Oh it won't disappoint me.
It's a line from a song.
Biblical Christianity is not the worship of the Bible, but it is the worship of the word of God who is Jesus. He is worthy of worship. No saints are worth of worship and there is nothing Scriptural that states we should pray to saints either and yes that includes Mary. If you pray to saints, you will be disappointed. Finally, being Catholic for 30 years has nothing to do with what is Scriptural or not
Never said it was but you had the gall to tell me what I believed. So I'm telling you that biblical christians worship the bible, live with it.
You never said it was; then why bring it up? I was Catholic for about as long as you. I know what Catholics believe.
I haven't told you what you believe; you are telling me what you believe. You said Catholics don't worship Mary. Perhaps you should give me your definition of worship, and while you are at it, show Scriptural justification for praying to Mary or saints asking them to seek God's favor as if she or they were departed intercessors for living believers on earth. Jesus is the only Biblical intercessor I know of and trust in. I don't need departed saints. Why do you?
Can't you read what is written? You seem to see things that are not there on your screen. Go back and read what I have written and then make a response to that.
You are not saying what it is you think I am seeing that is not there. Look, let's nip this thing.
I am not telling you what you believe; I am telling you simply that there is no Scriptural justification for praying to Mary as if she were an intercessor of some sought. It makes no never mind if you consider it worship or not. If a Muslim accuses Catholics of idolatry for praying to departed saints, they don't have a leg to stand on. You go back and read and answer my questions or change the topic.
you are loved
There is no scriptural justification for claiming that the only TRUE christians, in gods eyes, are those who are biblical inerrant christians.
I'll tell you everything I've learned...................
and LOVE is all he said

-The Boy With The Moon and Star On His Head-Cat Stevens.

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Post #38

Post by HaLi8993 »

@ Pazuzu
It strikes me as hilarious that a Muslim (HaLi8993) will deny that a Catholic who has practised his religion for 30 years (10CC) knows what he is talking about when it comes to his own religion.

He claims that “Catholics will deny they worship Mary, but who are we kidding�. Yet when faced with his own religion’s association of Muhammad to allah (“I never said Muslims claimed Muhammad was or is equal with Allah. I said they associate him with Allah in the second part of the shahada. Why do you deny the obvious?�) he denies it in strenuous terms!
What is even more hilarious is that after 30 years of practicing Christianity as a Catholic, Catholics cannot show me where their practices and beliefs can be found in their own scripture.

Whats even more hilarious is that you assume im a "he" when I am not, and that you cannot show or explain to me how the shahada is associating partners with God, wheras on the other hand I have given you countless explanations as to why praying to Mary along with other rituals are associating partners with God, not to mention how these practices are not part of the true teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him).

I would like you to attempt to explain to me how the shahada is associating partners with God. The only explanation I have received thus far is because they are in the same sentence, nice try!!!!, but not good enough. lol.

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Post #39

Post by HaLi8993 »

@ 10CC
Have you ever been a catholic? Do you have any inkling into the beliefs of catholics? I've never been a muslim but I know for a fact that muhammad was a paedophile I know for a fact that muslims worship muhammad and the koran. Are there anymore facts about muhammadism that you would like me to correct you on?
Don't tell ME what I used to believe, you wouldn't know anymore about catholic beliefs than you know what a tadpole thinks.
The beliefs of Catholics are apparent, the beliefs of Catholics are not something that is denied, nor can they be found in the very scripture they believe in, nor can it be proven that it is from God or something that was instructed by Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). I have shown you evidence how the beliefs of Catholics is associating partners with God, and I have also shown you how Catholics worship Mary, something you could not even defend or deny. However you on the other hand claim you "know" Islam, going on to make empty statements without any evidence or proof for your claims, without understanding Islam and also without any explanation as to how what you say can be remotely considered to be anything close to the truth. Therefore as much as you try to deny what you used to believe in was not associating partners with God and that it is correct according to your scripture and what God has commanded of you to follow you cannot. The obvious is clear, saying a thing does not make it correct rather proving what you say would make it correct, in my opinion something that clearly has not been done. :)

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Post #40

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

HaLi8993 wrote:Whats even more hilarious is that you assume im a "he" when I am not
How was I to know that when you take a username of a man? Hali being the name of Sultans back in the 13th Century CE, a male American Football player AND a male muslim poet?
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

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