Misconceptions and Borrowed Concepts

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

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Misconceptions and Borrowed Concepts

Post #1

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Did Allah and Muhammad understand the concept of the Christianity trinity and did Islam borrow the concept of heaven and hell from Christianity?

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Post #21

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HaLi8993 wrote: @ Burninglight
Goat is right, and he didn't say Catholics don't consider themselves Christians. Besides, many Muslims, if not all, idolize Muhammad, and that is a form of worship even though it goes contrary to his message. Moreover, they associate partners to Allah. It is in the second part of the shahada. They have to say; "And his messenger." No matter how you twist or turn it, that is an association, lol. Islam/Muhammad got the idea of monotheism from the Jews and the Christians; so, it or he brings nothing new only deception as Allah admits he is "The Best of Deceivers" 

No Christians (Not even Catholics) ever took Mary to be a god like Allah questions Jesus saying: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me..." Just from that question alone we can tell that Allah and Muhammad had grave misconceptions of Christianity and the Bible. Allah shows he is not all knowing by asking Jesus that question, and it shows Allah's misconception of the trinity if you could be objective. He thought the trinity consisted of the son, mother and Allah. He didn't know that Christians believe the Holy Spirit is God; it is the only logically inference that can be made; otherwise, he would have said say not four instead of three. Muslims are obtuse about this. 

In fact, Islam has imperfectly borrowed from Christianity. The Holy Spirit wasn't Gabriel; He was and is God, and they borrowed the virgin birth of Jesus from the NT Bible, but they don't know the significance of why Jesus was born of a virgin. The Bible explains why but they don't accept the Biblical explanation because they would rather adhere to Allah's, Muhammad's and their misconceptions. Islam is a political endeavor to take over the world, and it is a religion that is in strict reaction to Christianity and nothing more. 


Goat is not a believer of Jesus Christ, and he can see more than Muslims about Christianity.
Firstly, Burninglight I didnt say that Goat did, what he said was: "Christians do not worship Mary", however Catholics consider themselves Christians, furthermore Goat admitted they worship Mary did he not ???, hence Christians do worship Mary. You are mistaken in saying that many Muslims idolize Muhammad (peace be upon him), although there are pockets of people that have been mislead and have invented innovation into the pure religion of Islam, Islam does not accept any form of association or idolization of Muhammad (peace be upon him) in any way, shape or form. You will not be able to find any of the teachings of Islam that teach associating partners with Allah rather what you will find is pure Islamic Monotheism.

Secondly, we are dealing with associating partners with God in worship. Burninglight im starting to think you dont seem to understand this concept. You seem to think that the Shahada is associating partners with God without looking at its meaning, just because I put them together in the same sentence does not mean that they are equal in authority. However with Mary those Christians that worship her are raising her to the level of God in worship.

Thirdly, again your failer to understand the Quran has proven itself, there are indeed Cristians that do worship Mary as God, denying such a thing would represent direct ignorance and rejection of the truth. Many Church Fathers and Councils viewed Mary as divine, many  of which having this view before the advent of Islam and its revealation. Hence the Quran is merely exposing this wrong blasphemous belief of the worship of Mary, making her into a divine being something she was not! so how is the Quran wrong?? 

One example as mentioned previously is the official rosary of the Catholic Church, sorry, but this is no more than a pagan prayer to other than Allah. Another example is the images portrayed in churches of Mary images being disallowed in Christianity. Let us not forget that ALL of mankind since the beginning of time will be resurrected on the Day of Judgement. Therefore it is only logical to answer the dilemma faced, not only by the Christians in our present era but by all Christians throughout the history of Christianity. Hence God is All-Knowing and you are not. The Quran contains no errors, the verse is telling Christians to not say three, which is what they always say, three as in trinity, therefore adding your own underdtanding as to what the three consists of and imposing your own untrue beliefs upon Muslims isnt going to work, unless you can show me a verse that states that Allah said the trinity is son, mother and Allah you have nothing.

Furthermore the holy spirit is Angel Gabriel, I would like you as a Christian to prove that in Christianity the holy spirit is God, there are countless contradictions as to this point. Christians time and again fall onto this point to prove the Quran wrong, as they are full aware that if the holy spirit is not God as they claim their entire belief of the trinity will crumble hence the reason for such accusations. Show me any evidence that the holy spirit is God, you will not be able too. It is only fair to say that the Quran will contain similar if not the same stories of the past, namely the virgin birh of Jesus (peace be upon him) this is due to the fact that the Quran is the last of the revelations containing in it and confirming the truth and falsehood of the past and present. The Quran makes it crystal clear as to the reason for Jesus' virgin birth, there are no misconceptions about the matter, we adhere to the true religion of God and do not go to extremes regarding Jesus (peace be upon him) and inventing things about him that we have no evidence for. Islam is a whole way of life, the best way of life for all of mankind, it is a religion of peace and justice, it enjoins good and forbids evil in all aspects of life and does not compremise its religion in the face of  any critic. 

Burninglight pls watch:



http://www.google.com.au/search?q=rever ... 80&bih=218
Hali: firstly nothing.
I never said Muslims claimed Muhammad was or is equal with Allah. I said they associate him with Allah in the second part of the shahada. Why do you deny the obvious?

True Christianity doesn't allow for the worship of Mary as the mother of God. Catholics are in error over this. And Islam is a reaction to Catholicism. Even Catholics don't consider Mary God; this is Allah's misconception and Muhammad's invention saying Christians ascribe partners unto to God. Where do you see Christians saying they do that or where do you find it in the Bible? The Best of Deceivers is lying to Muslims telling them we believe in things we don't to keep you in deception. When Muslims see the truth and leave Islam, Muslims seek to do an honor killing!

Now, I will prove to you the points I was trying to make using your Scriptures. Look at S. 5 73: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah..."

Notice, Allah is saying of those (Christians) that they say Allah is the third. Now when Allah questions Jesus we find out who the first and second are: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?"

A child can infer that the first is Jesus (Son) the second is Mary (mother) the third of three is Allah (father). if you cannot see this, you are being willfully ignorant and unnecessarily difficult and obtuse. How can I expect a Muslim to see truth when their god is the best of deceivers?

I AM not trying to be rude to you; I am trying to wake you up. Now lets get back to the association in the second part or the shahada, don't tell me I don't understand the concept. I know you mean Muhammad is Allah's prophet or slave apostle, but that is not the point. He is still mentioned in association.

Now here is the tricky part. I can make an argument that Islam sees Muhammad equal with Allah with the following verses of Islamic belief: [Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah. If anyone turns away, We did not send you [Muhammad] to them as their keeper.] (An-Nisaa' 4:80)

Wow, did you catch that? To obey Muhammad is to obey Allah. it sounds like Muhammad is way up there in authority with Allah to me. Now you might say "Yea, but Allah gives Muhammad the directive for you to obey, but the verse doesn't say that. There is where we can see an association. The Sunnah is the interpretation, explanation of, and commentary on the Qur'an. Therefore, no believer, neither man nor woman, has any right to reject it:

[When Allah and His Messenger have decided something, it is not for any man or woman of the believers to have a choice about it. Anyone who disobeys Allah and His Messenger is clearly misguided.] (Al-Ahzab 33:36) Double wow: Looks like an association to me; it smells like one too. So, you Muslims better stop throwing rocks when you live in a glass houses.

[Whatever the Messenger gives you, you should accept, and whatever he forbids you, you should forgo. Have fear [and respect] of Allah � Allah is severe in retribution.] (Al-Hashr 59:7) Triple wow, my God tells me not to accept anything from a prophet until I test and try their spirit. Muhammad fails the test; in fact, so those Allah. Allah is not the God of Abraham, and the Quran speaks of a different Jesus; that is why Muslims are leaving Islam and coming to the truth who is Jesus Christ!
PS........ I look at the video I believe their daughter, because her God is no longer the best of deceivers!

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Post #22

Post by 10CC »

[Replying to post 21 by Burninglight]

I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
I'll tell you everything I've learned...................
and LOVE is all he said

-The Boy With The Moon and Star On His Head-Cat Stevens.

keithprosser3

Post #23

Post by keithprosser3 »

123545

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Post #24

Post by Burninglight »

10CC wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Burninglight]

I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Saying the hail Mary is a form of worship; praying to Mary to put in a good word to God or Jesus for you is a form of idolatry; considering Mary the mother of God when God is her creator is a form of worship. Muhammad felt that way about Catholicism and Biblical Christians do as well. You can put that in the bank.
That doesn't mean that Catholics won't go to heaven because they believe and trust Jesus for their salvation, but putting faith in Mary and saints will disappoint you.

Can you explain what your signature means?
"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all." Augustine

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Post #25

Post by 10CC »

Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Burninglight]

I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Saying the hail Mary is a form of worship; praying to Mary to put in a good word to God or Jesus for you is a form of idolatry; considering Mary the mother of God when God is her creator is a form of worship. Muhammad felt that way about Catholicism and Biblical Christians do as well. You can put that in the bank.
That doesn't mean that Catholics won't go to heaven because they believe and trust Jesus for their salvation, but putting faith in Mary and saints will disappoint you.

Can you explain what your signature means?
And biblical christians worship the bible. You see you don't get to tell others what it is they are worshiping unless others have reciprocal rights to tell you what you worship. See how that works?
Oh it won't disappoint me.
It's a line from a song.
I'll tell you everything I've learned...................
and LOVE is all he said

-The Boy With The Moon and Star On His Head-Cat Stevens.

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Post #26

Post by Burninglight »

10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Burninglight]

I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Saying the hail Mary is a form of worship; praying to Mary to put in a good word to God or Jesus for you is a form of idolatry; considering Mary the mother of God when God is her creator is a form of worship. Muhammad felt that way about Catholicism and Biblical Christians do as well. You can put that in the bank.
That doesn't mean that Catholics won't go to heaven because they believe and trust Jesus for their salvation, but putting faith in Mary and saints will disappoint you.

Can you explain what your signature means?
And biblical christians worship the bible. You see you don't get to tell others what it is they are worshiping unless others have reciprocal rights to tell you what you worship. See how that works?
Oh it won't disappoint me.
It's a line from a song.
Biblical Christianity is not the worship of the Bible, but it is the worship of the word of God who is Jesus. He is worthy of worship. No saints are worth of worship and there is nothing Scriptural that states we should pray to saints either and yes that includes Mary. If you pray to saints, you will be disappointed. Finally, being Catholic for 30 years has nothing to do with what is Scriptural or not

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Post #27

Post by 10CC »

Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Burninglight]

I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Saying the hail Mary is a form of worship; praying to Mary to put in a good word to God or Jesus for you is a form of idolatry; considering Mary the mother of God when God is her creator is a form of worship. Muhammad felt that way about Catholicism and Biblical Christians do as well. You can put that in the bank.
That doesn't mean that Catholics won't go to heaven because they believe and trust Jesus for their salvation, but putting faith in Mary and saints will disappoint you.

Can you explain what your signature means?
And biblical christians worship the bible. You see you don't get to tell others what it is they are worshiping unless others have reciprocal rights to tell you what you worship. See how that works?
Oh it won't disappoint me.
It's a line from a song.
Biblical Christianity is not the worship of the Bible, but it is the worship of the word of God who is Jesus. He is worthy of worship. No saints are worth of worship and there is nothing Scriptural that states we should pray to saints either and yes that includes Mary. If you pray to saints, you will be disappointed. Finally, being Catholic for 30 years has nothing to do with what is Scriptural or not
Never said it was but you had the gall to tell me what I believed. So I'm telling you that biblical christians worship the bible, live with it.
I'll tell you everything I've learned...................
and LOVE is all he said

-The Boy With The Moon and Star On His Head-Cat Stevens.

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Post #28

Post by Burninglight »

10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Burninglight]

I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Saying the hail Mary is a form of worship; praying to Mary to put in a good word to God or Jesus for you is a form of idolatry; considering Mary the mother of God when God is her creator is a form of worship. Muhammad felt that way about Catholicism and Biblical Christians do as well. You can put that in the bank.
That doesn't mean that Catholics won't go to heaven because they believe and trust Jesus for their salvation, but putting faith in Mary and saints will disappoint you.

Can you explain what your signature means?
And biblical christians worship the bible. You see you don't get to tell others what it is they are worshiping unless others have reciprocal rights to tell you what you worship. See how that works?
Oh it won't disappoint me.
It's a line from a song.
Biblical Christianity is not the worship of the Bible, but it is the worship of the word of God who is Jesus. He is worthy of worship. No saints are worth of worship and there is nothing Scriptural that states we should pray to saints either and yes that includes Mary. If you pray to saints, you will be disappointed. Finally, being Catholic for 30 years has nothing to do with what is Scriptural or not
Never said it was but you had the gall to tell me what I believed. So I'm telling you that biblical christians worship the bible, live with it.
You never said it was; then why bring it up? I was Catholic for about as long as you. I know what Catholics believe.
I haven't told you what you believe; you are telling me what you believe. You said Catholics don't worship Mary. Perhaps you should give me your definition of worship, and while you are at it, show Scriptural justification for praying to Mary or saints asking them to seek God's favor as if she or they were departed intercessors for living believers on earth. Jesus is the only Biblical intercessor I know of and trust in. I don't need departed saints. Why do you?

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Post #29

Post by 10CC »

Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Burninglight]

I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Saying the hail Mary is a form of worship; praying to Mary to put in a good word to God or Jesus for you is a form of idolatry; considering Mary the mother of God when God is her creator is a form of worship. Muhammad felt that way about Catholicism and Biblical Christians do as well. You can put that in the bank.
That doesn't mean that Catholics won't go to heaven because they believe and trust Jesus for their salvation, but putting faith in Mary and saints will disappoint you.

Can you explain what your signature means?
And biblical christians worship the bible. You see you don't get to tell others what it is they are worshiping unless others have reciprocal rights to tell you what you worship. See how that works?
Oh it won't disappoint me.
It's a line from a song.
Biblical Christianity is not the worship of the Bible, but it is the worship of the word of God who is Jesus. He is worthy of worship. No saints are worth of worship and there is nothing Scriptural that states we should pray to saints either and yes that includes Mary. If you pray to saints, you will be disappointed. Finally, being Catholic for 30 years has nothing to do with what is Scriptural or not
Never said it was but you had the gall to tell me what I believed. So I'm telling you that biblical christians worship the bible, live with it.
You never said it was; then why bring it up? I was Catholic for about as long as you. I know what Catholics believe.
I haven't told you what you believe; you are telling me what you believe. You said Catholics don't worship Mary. Perhaps you should give me your definition of worship, and while you are at it, show Scriptural justification for praying to Mary or saints asking them to seek God's favor as if she or they were departed intercessors for living believers on earth. Jesus is the only Biblical intercessor I know of and trust in. I don't need departed saints. Why do you?
Can't you read what is written? You seem to see things that are not there on your screen. Go back and read what I have written and then make a response to that.
I'll tell you everything I've learned...................
and LOVE is all he said

-The Boy With The Moon and Star On His Head-Cat Stevens.

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Post #30

Post by Burninglight »

Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
10CC wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Burninglight]

I spent 30yrs as a catholic.
Catholics don't worship Mary. Put that in the bank.
Saying the hail Mary is a form of worship; praying to Mary to put in a good word to God or Jesus for you is a form of idolatry; considering Mary the mother of God when God is her creator is a form of worship. Muhammad felt that way about Catholicism and Biblical Christians do as well. You can put that in the bank.
That doesn't mean that Catholics won't go to heaven because they believe and trust Jesus for their salvation, but putting faith in Mary and saints will disappoint you.

Can you explain what your signature means?
And biblical christians worship the bible. You see you don't get to tell others what it is they are worshiping unless others have reciprocal rights to tell you what you worship. See how that works?
Oh it won't disappoint me.
It's a line from a song.
Biblical Christianity is not the worship of the Bible, but it is the worship of the word of God who is Jesus. He is worthy of worship. No saints are worth of worship and there is nothing Scriptural that states we should pray to saints either and yes that includes Mary. If you pray to saints, you will be disappointed. Finally, being Catholic for 30 years has nothing to do with what is Scriptural or not
You are not saying what it is you think I am seeing that is not there. Look, let's nip this thing.
I am not telling you what you believe; I am telling you simply that there is no Scriptural justification for praying to Mary as if she were an intercessor of some sought. It makes no never mind if you consider it worship or not. If a Muslim accuses Catholics of idolatry for praying to departed saints, they don't have a leg to stand on. You go back and read and answer my questions or change the topic.
you are loved

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