Messiah in the Talmud

[Thruit]

The Talmud says the Hebrew Bible depicts Messiah appearing in two different ways:

Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ass!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ass.

Rabbi Joshua quoted Daniel 7:13, where the Messiah receives a Kingdom from God.

Rabbi Joshua also quoted Zechariah 9:9, where Messiah comes to His people in humility.

According to Rabbi Joshua, the manner in which the Messiah appears depends on the conduct of the Jewish people.

Is there anything in the Hebrew Bible that indicates the manner of Messiahs coming has anything to do with Israel's behavior?

[cnorman18]

1--We hold the Torah to be more authoritative and more reliable than the rest of the Hebrew Bible.
2--We know that LOTS of rabbis and sages in the Talmud made mistakes and were wrong. Did you not notice that this was a DEBATE, and these two rabbis DISAGREED about how the Messiah would show up?
3--THE "PROPHECIES" DON'T MATTER. AND NEVER DID. What's important is that the Messiah was to institute the Messianic Age, which hasn't happened. Ergo, the Messiah has not yet come. That's all we need to know, period, full stop, on the subject of whether Jesus was the Messiah. HE WASN'T, and only Jews get to make that call for Jews.
4--Whether or not Jesus was the Messiah is a trivial question compared to the claim that Jesus was GOD INCARNATE. That's WAY out of court.

Words are cheap. If you held the Torah to be authoritative at all, you'd reinstate the priesthood and Moses' form of government. You would stop disobeying Moses by eating passover in your own city, knowing that he claimed it should be celebrated "in the place the Lord your God will choose", ultimately Jerusalem.

I'm sorry, but Jews hold the Talmud to be more authoritative than the Torah. It's clear by the way they devote their lives to the Talmud but only courtesies to the Torah.

I don't believe you have as much authority to interpret the Tenakh as Christians do if you choose not to live by it and we do.

Since you very clearly know nothing whatever about Jewish teachings, Jewish history, the Talmud and its place in Jewish belief and study, and least of all about the Torah (e.g. that we read from the Torah, in Hebrew, three times a week and read it through every year), I don't think your baseless, uninformed and unsupported opinions are worth my time any more. You have very clearly never read so much as an informative article about Judaism that was actually written by a practicing Jew, never mind actually have read a real, live BOOK on the subject.

Have a nice day.

[The Me's]

Since you very clearly know nothing whatever about Jewish teachings, Jewish history, the Talmud and its place in Jewish belief and study, and least of all about the Torah (e.g. that we read from the Torah, in Hebrew, three times a week and read it through every year), I don't think your baseless, uninformed and unsupported opinions are worth my time any more. You have very clearly never read so much as an informative article about Judaism that was actually written by a practicing Jew, never mind actually have read a real, live BOOK on the subject.

Have a nice day.

I'm sure you need me to be an idiot. That would be convenient for you so that you don't have to explain what you just said.

That's okay with me. I'm an idiot to a lot of people.

Unfortunately for you, you know better.

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 22 by The Me's]

I've never said that you're an "idiot." But I DO note that you continue to refuse to answer my simple, plain questions.

That speaks for itself about the validity of your opinions. SAYING you know all about a subject certainly doesn't establish that you DO; and so far, all you have SAID reveals your actual IGNORANCE about Jewish history and belief. That is not the same as being an "idiot."

Be well, and don't expect any more conversation from me. Your posts aren't worth my time, and if you want to preen as having "beaten" me on that basis, feel free. I don't think anyone who's been here more than a week or two will be fooled.

[The Me's]

[Replying to post 22 by The Me's]

I've never said that you're an "idiot." But I DO note that you continue to refuse to answer my simple, plain questions.

That speaks for itself about the validity of your opinions. SAYING you know all about a subject certainly doesn't establish that you DO; and so far, all you have SAID reveals your actual IGNORANCE about Jewish history and belief. That is not the same as being an "idiot."

Be well, and don't expect any more conversation from me. Your posts aren't worth my time, and if you want to preen as having "beaten" me on that basis, feel free. I don't think anyone who's been here more than a week or two will be fooled.

This is an open forum.

You're very likely to respond to me again, and you're likely to strike the same character of condescension rather than rise to a human level of exchange of information.

(Come on. It's not like I haven't seen this before. Don't take it so personally. YOU have no investment to protect. Only God does.)

[Thruit]

The Me's posted,
The two rabbis lack temporal awareness.

Both verses can refer to the same messiah very easily as long as they refer to two different points in time, one referring to his arrival, the other to his victory.

You're right, but please keep in mind some Jews today believe the passages the two Rabbis were discussing were never considered messianic, so maybe the two Rabbis never existed. Maybe the Talmud doesn't really exist.

[Thruit]

cnorman18 posted,
I don't care to be lectured about my own religion by someone who thinks he knows more about it than I do, and in fact knows very, very little.

Actually, you think you know more about your religion than Jesus does.

Please show that the Hebrew Bible explicitly teaches that the Messiah will come twice.

That's what the two Rabbis were guessing about. Because of predujice, you're still guessing.

[Goat]

cnorman18 posted,
I don't care to be lectured about my own religion by someone who thinks he knows more about it than I do, and in fact knows very, very little.

Actually, you think you know more about your religion than Jesus does.

Please show that the Hebrew Bible explicitly teaches that the Messiah will come twice.

That's what the two Rabbis were guessing about. Because of predujice, you're still guessing.

The thing is, Jesus is not doign any talking, nor did he write down anything, so you do not know what he thought, he felt, he knew about Judaism. You know the words some people put into his mouth a few decades later, people who had a theological axe to grind against Judaism to a large extent.

Do you know what the Talmud is?? I am sure you know that it's a Jewish book, but do you understand what function it provides?

Can you describe the function of the Talmud? What does it do?

[Thruit]

Goat posted,
The thing is, Jesus is not doign any talking, nor did he write down anything, so you do not know what he thought, he felt, he knew about Judaism. You know the words some people put into his mouth a few decades later, people who had a theological axe to grind against Judaism to a large extent.

A few decades later? That's a news flash in the ancient world. You seem to be unaware that immediately upon your death, for anyone who never met you in person, your entire existence will be based on the testimony of those who knew you.

Do you know what the Talmud is?? I am sure you know that it's a Jewish book, but do you understand what function it provides?
Can you describe the function of the Talmud? What does it do?

The Talmud is rabbinic commentary on civil and religious life. It's function is to teach.

Why do you think the rabbis understood the Messiah as coming with the clouds of Heaven and also appearing on a donkey?

[cnorman18]

The Talmud is rabbinic commentary on civil and religious life. It's function is to teach.

The Talmud is the record of several centuries of debates and discussions among the sages and rabbis about the meaning of the Torah and the proper application of Jewish law in a variety of circumstances; but your answer is near enough, I suppose, for one who has never studied it.

What is your problem with the Talmud? What is in it that you regard as wrong or objectionable? Can you be specific?

[Goat]

Goat posted,
The thing is, Jesus is not doign any talking, nor did he write down anything, so you do not know what he thought, he felt, he knew about Judaism. You know the words some people put into his mouth a few decades later, people who had a theological axe to grind against Judaism to a large extent.

A few decades later? That's a news flash in the ancient world. You seem to be unaware that immediately upon your death, for anyone who never met you in person, your entire existence will be based on the testimony of those who knew you.

There is no evidence that the people who wrote down the Gospels knew Jesus.. and News flash.. my words have been written down...

Do you know what the Talmud is?? I am sure you know that it's a Jewish book, but do you understand what function it provides?
Can you describe the function of the Talmud? What does it do?

The Talmud is rabbinic commentary on civil and religious life. It's function is to teach.

Incorrect. While it is commentary on the civil and religious life, it is basically a 2nd to 4th century version of an internet cafe, where the Rabbi's look at the discuss
the various aspects of the Torah and see how it applies to their times.

If you can't even get what the Talmud is, how can you expect to understnd what it says?

I can quote various aspects that you will find that there are certain Rabbi's that say 'the time in which the Messiah would appear have is past',, and also
'We won't get another messiah, because we already had him in Hezekiah'.
Christians never quote those passages from the Talmud. Gosh, I wonder why?