The Talmud says the Hebrew Bible depicts Messiah appearing in two different ways:
Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ass!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ass.
Rabbi Joshua quoted Daniel 7:13, where the Messiah receives a Kingdom from God.
Rabbi Joshua also quoted Zechariah 9:9, where Messiah comes to His people in humility.
According to Rabbi Joshua, the manner in which the Messiah appears depends on the conduct of the Jewish people.
Is there anything in the Hebrew Bible that indicates the manner of Messiahs coming has anything to do with Israel's behavior?
Messiah in the Talmud
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Post #31
My problem isn't with the Talmud. My problem is with your insistance that certain passages (Is.53 for instance) were never ascribed to the Messiah. The depths that Jews have gone to for centuries to distance themselves from anything in the Bible connected to Jesus as Messiah goes beyond justification, because it denies Jewish history.cnorman18 posted,
What is your problem with the Talmud? What is in it that you regard as wrong or objectionable? Can you be specific?
"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." He.1:6
" Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him..." De.32:43
(Don't look for it in your Bible norman...it was changed by the Masorites after Jesus came.)
Post #32
Further news flash...unless there is a witness to testify, after you die, the evidence that you wrote, said, or did anything, or even existed is unprovable.goat posted,
There is no evidence that the people who wrote down the Gospels knew Jesus.. and News flash.. my words have been written down...
I don't know, but maybe we could ask modern day rabbis who teach their congregations today by quoting Rashi and other revered rabbis who quoted the Talmud.Incorrect. While it is commentary on the civil and religious life, it is basically a 2nd to 4th century version of an internet cafe, where the Rabbi's look at the discuss
the various aspects of the Torah and see how it applies to their times.
If you can't even get what the Talmud is, how can you expect to understnd what it says?
I wonder why too, as the Rabbis rightly expected the Messiah to appear before the destruction of the 2nd temple.I can quote various aspects that you will find that there are certain Rabbi's that say 'the time in which the Messiah would appear have is past',, and also
'We won't get another messiah, because we already had him in Hezekiah'.
Christians never quote those passages from the Talmud. Gosh, I wonder why?
Lets see...Messiah will appear before the temple is destroyed, either riding on a donkey, or coming with the clouds of Heaven. Hmm...funny how the mystery all disappears in Jesus, isn't it?
(Btw, you didn't answer my question. Too close to Jesus perhaps.)
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Post #33
Well, no, according the Jewish tradition, it is not the Messiah. If you read it in context (you do know about context, don't you), the Nation of Israel is specificallyThruit wrote:My problem isn't with the Talmud. My problem is with your insistance that certain passages (Is.53 for instance) were never ascribed to the Messiah. The depths that Jews have gone to for centuries to distance themselves from anything in the Bible connected to Jesus as Messiah goes beyond justification, because it denies Jewish history.cnorman18 posted,
What is your problem with the Talmud? What is in it that you regard as wrong or objectionable? Can you be specific?
"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." He.1:6
" Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him..." De.32:43
(Don't look for it in your Bible norman...it was changed by the Masorites after Jesus came.)
named IN the 4th servant song as the suffering servant. This was done repeatedly
Christians do not have the right to tell the Jewish faith on how to intepret their own scriptures.
Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.�
Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim
it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!�
Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.�
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Post #34
Lol...yeah, a little bit.Goat posted,
Well, no, according the Jewish tradition, it is not the Messiah. If you read it in context (you do know about context, don't you),
Why do you think God veiled the Messiah as a sufferer in scripture?the Nation of Israel is specifically
named IN the 4th servant song as the suffering servant. This was done repeatedly
Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.�
Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim
it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!�
Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.�
"Christians" didn't write the NT.Christians do not have the right to tell the Jewish faith on how to intepret their own scriptures.
Post #35
Thruit wrote:My priorities are different from yours.You're right, but please keep in mind some Jews today believe the passages the two Rabbis were discussing were never considered messianic, so maybe the two Rabbis never existed. Maybe the Talmud doesn't really exist.
I consider quotes from the OT to be authoritative, not the quotes from the rabbis.
The rabbis never had the authority to change the intent or meaning of Daniel or Isaiah or anyone else, nor do modern Jews or Christians. To claim "this is what Jews believe" means little or nothing on the topic.
Always return to the sources if you want clarity. The perpetual battle of "the experts" is a totally fruitless labor.
Post #36
[Replying to post 31 by Thruit]
Trouble with that theory is that the passages that Christians cite as "Messianic," by and large, were NEVER considered "Messianic" till AFTER Jesus showed up. Further, the traditions about what the Messiah was supposed to do had been formed long centuries before Jesus or the advent of Christianity.
Everyone here keeps dancing around the biggest problem of all, without so much as acknowledging it as a problem, never mind actually addressing it: The idea that the Messiah would be God Himself Incarnate appears NOWHERE in Jewish literature, tradition, or teaching. You keep trying to justify belief in Jesus by using Christian interpretations of the Hebrew Bible; but, twist and turn all you like, that isn't in it, nor is it to be found anywhere else. Case closed.
As I keep saying; worship Jesus as Lord, God and Christ all you want; but don't expect Jews to do it, because we're not gonna. Sure, some Jews have decided to; that doesn't matter -- especially since many Christians, like me, have become Jews and don't any more.
Trouble with that theory is that the passages that Christians cite as "Messianic," by and large, were NEVER considered "Messianic" till AFTER Jesus showed up. Further, the traditions about what the Messiah was supposed to do had been formed long centuries before Jesus or the advent of Christianity.
Everyone here keeps dancing around the biggest problem of all, without so much as acknowledging it as a problem, never mind actually addressing it: The idea that the Messiah would be God Himself Incarnate appears NOWHERE in Jewish literature, tradition, or teaching. You keep trying to justify belief in Jesus by using Christian interpretations of the Hebrew Bible; but, twist and turn all you like, that isn't in it, nor is it to be found anywhere else. Case closed.
As I keep saying; worship Jesus as Lord, God and Christ all you want; but don't expect Jews to do it, because we're not gonna. Sure, some Jews have decided to; that doesn't matter -- especially since many Christians, like me, have become Jews and don't any more.
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Post #37
Thruit wrote:My problem isn't with the Talmud. My problem is with your insistance that certain passages (Is.53 for instance) were never ascribed to the Messiah. The depths that Jews have gone to for centuries to distance themselves from anything in the Bible connected to Jesus as Messiah goes beyond justification, because it denies Jewish history.cnorman18 posted,
What is your problem with the Talmud? What is in it that you regard as wrong or objectionable? Can you be specific?
"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." He.1:6
" Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him..." De.32:43
(Don't look for it in your Bible norman...it was changed by the Masorites after Jesus came.)
Now, Hebrew 1:6 is not part of the Jewish scriptures.
and your quote form Deuteronomy is out of context. Frankly, your attempts to interpret the Jewish scriptures are not very good. Maybe you could go to a rabbi, and he can give you classes.
Deut. 32 is God talking to Moses (according to Moses at least), and has nothing to do with Jesus.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Post #38
Wise words.The Me's posted,
My priorities are different from yours.
I consider quotes from the OT to be authoritative, not the quotes from the rabbis.
The rabbis never had the authority to change the intent or meaning of Daniel or Isaiah or anyone else, nor do modern Jews or Christians. To claim "this is what Jews believe" means little or nothing on the topic.
Always return to the sources if you want clarity. The perpetual battle of "the experts" is a totally fruitless labor.
Post #39
Hebrews 1 is written by a Jew quoting the Jewish scriptures.Goat posted,
Now, Hebrew 1:6 is not part of the Jewish scriptures.
I wasn't interpreting the Jewish scriptures. The Jews who wrote the NT were.and your quote form Deuteronomy is out of context. Frankly, your attempts to interpret the Jewish scriptures are not very good.
That would be a step backward.Maybe you could go to a rabbi, and he can give you classes.
As I said, we have the Masorites to thank for that.Deut. 32 is God talking to Moses (according to Moses at least), and has nothing to do with Jesus.
Post #40
I'm using Jewish interpretations to justify belief in Jesus as Messiah and your statement, "...don't expect Jews to do it..." is a farse, since it was Jews who worshipped Jesus to begin with. I understand how the confusion of the Messiahs identity and mission occured. Why it occured is another matter.cnorman18 posted,
Trouble with that theory is that the passages that Christians cite as "Messianic," by and large, were NEVER considered "Messianic" till AFTER Jesus showed up. Further, the traditions about what the Messiah was supposed to do had been formed long centuries before Jesus or the advent of Christianity.
Everyone here keeps dancing around the biggest problem of all, without so much as acknowledging it as a problem, never mind actually addressing it: The idea that the Messiah would be God Himself Incarnate appears NOWHERE in Jewish literature, tradition, or teaching. You keep trying to justify belief in Jesus by using Christian interpretations of the Hebrew Bible; but, twist and turn all you like, that isn't in it, nor is it to be found anywhere else. Case closed.
As I keep saying; worship Jesus as Lord, God and Christ all you want; but don't expect Jews to do it, because we're not gonna. Sure, some Jews have decided to; that doesn't matter -- especially since many Christians, like me, have become Jews and don't any more.