Messiah in the Talmud

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Thruit
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Messiah in the Talmud

Post #1

Post by Thruit »

The Talmud says the Hebrew Bible depicts Messiah appearing in two different ways:

Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ass!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ass.

Rabbi Joshua quoted Daniel 7:13, where the Messiah receives a Kingdom from God.

Rabbi Joshua also quoted Zechariah 9:9, where Messiah comes to His people in humility.

According to Rabbi Joshua, the manner in which the Messiah appears depends on the conduct of the Jewish people.

Is there anything in the Hebrew Bible that indicates the manner of Messiahs coming has anything to do with Israel's behavior?

cnorman18

Post #41

Post by cnorman18 »

Just an observation; if the New Testament is a Jewish book because it was written by people who called themselves Jews, then Mein Kampf is a Christian book because it was written by a man who called himself a Christian.

Honestly, the idea that ALL the opinions of ALL the Jewish sages and rabbis for the last 2,000 years should be discarded because of the opinion of some guy on an Internet forum is -- well, fill in the blank for yourself.

Further, if Jews were ever to worship a MAN as GOD, one would think there would be more indication of that in the Hebrew Bible than a couple of obscure and HIGHLY ambiguous verses -- and SOMETHING in the TORAH about it.

What arrant nonsense. Why waste any further time on this?

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Post #42

Post by Thruit »

cnorman18 posted,
Just an observation; if the New Testament is a Jewish book because it was written by people who called themselves Jews, then Mein Kampf is a Christian book because it was written by a man who called himself a Christian.

Honestly, the idea that ALL the opinions of ALL the Jewish sages and rabbis for the last 2,000 years should be discarded because of the opinion of some guy on an Internet forum is -- well, fill in the blank for yourself.

Further, if Jews were ever to worship a MAN as GOD, one would think there would be more indication of that in the Hebrew Bible than a couple of obscure and HIGHLY ambiguous verses -- and SOMETHING in the TORAH about it.

What arrant nonsense. Why waste any further time on this?
I'm not the one who came up with the idea of a suffering Messiah. Your Jewish sages did, so your statement that I'm suggesting all the opinions of all the Jewish sages should be discarded is nonsense. Why is it so ridiculous for you take their idea and look at it another way?

Jews believe in a resurrection. They even believe the suffering Messiah will be raised from the dead, yet it is impossible for you to imagine God would raise Him from the dead before anyone else.

As a former Christian, you must know how Jesus taught that the Kingdom of God is here now:

"Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." Lk.17:20-21

We all know what you sow is what you reap. The Kingdom is here now. It's being planted now and Jesus is Lord over it.

He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return...And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom...(and He said) those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.Lk.19:12,15,27
Last edited by Thruit on Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #43

Post by Goat »

Thruit wrote:
cnorman18 posted,
Just an observation; if the New Testament is a Jewish book because it was written by people who called themselves Jews, then Mein Kampf is a Christian book because it was written by a man who called himself a Christian.

Honestly, the idea that ALL the opinions of ALL the Jewish sages and rabbis for the last 2,000 years should be discarded because of the opinion of some guy on an Internet forum is -- well, fill in the blank for yourself.

Further, if Jews were ever to worship a MAN as GOD, one would think there would be more indication of that in the Hebrew Bible than a couple of obscure and HIGHLY ambiguous verses -- and SOMETHING in the TORAH about it.

What arrant nonsense. Why waste any further time on this?
I'm not the one who came up with the idea of a sufering Messiah. Your Jewish sages did, so your statement that I'm suggesting all the opinions of all the Jewish sages should be discarded is nonsense. Why is it so ridiculous for you take their idea and look at it another way?

Jews believe in a resurrection. They even believe the suffering Messiah will be raised from the dead, yet it is impossible for you to imagine God would raise Him from the dead before anyone else.
Incorrect. There is nothing in the Jewish faith that thinks the Messiah will be 'raised from the dead'.

You seem to have a lack of knowledge and understanding of the Jewish faith, the Jewish scriptures, and the Jewish tradition. You are filtering it all through 'Christ colored glasses'.. and you don't even understand that the concept of the Jewish messiah is much different than the Christian 'Christ'
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #44

Post by Thruit »

Goat posted,Incorrect. There is nothing in the Jewish faith that thinks the Messiah will be 'raised from the dead'.
Jews believe Messiah ben Joseph will be resurrected, along with Abraham, Isaiah, etc.

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Post #45

Post by Goat »

Thruit wrote:
Goat posted,Incorrect. There is nothing in the Jewish faith that thinks the Messiah will be 'raised from the dead'.
Jews believe Messiah ben Joseph will be resurrected, along with Abraham, Isaiah, etc.
No. Not at all. (This is coming from a Jewish person).

You are incorrect. While many do believe in an afterlife , there are many Jews that do not. The belief in the afterlife, in reincarnation,and things like that is highly variable in the Jewish faith. While traditionally, the belief in the afterlife/resurrection is prominent, it is not dogma or universal
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #46

Post by dianaiad »

Thruit wrote:
The Me's posted,
My priorities are different from yours.

I consider quotes from the OT to be authoritative, not the quotes from the rabbis.

The rabbis never had the authority to change the intent or meaning of Daniel or Isaiah or anyone else, nor do modern Jews or Christians. To claim "this is what Jews believe" means little or nothing on the topic.

Always return to the sources if you want clarity. The perpetual battle of "the experts" is a totally fruitless labor.
Wise words.
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cnorman18

Post #47

Post by cnorman18 »

The "afterlife" is not so much as mentioned in the Torah. There is no formal teaching in Judaism about an "afterlife." Belief in an "afterlife" is common among Jews, but it not required. And even if one believes in a general Resurrection, there is NOTHING -- ANYWHERE -- in Jewish tradition about a "special Resurrection" that concerns the Messiah.

And, of course, I note once again that the issue of a MAN being worshiped as GOD, a key component of Christian belief that is absolutely absent from and contradictory to everything in Jewish belief, teaching and tradition, is still being assiduously avoided here....

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Post #48

Post by The Me's »

Goat wrote:
Incorrect. There is nothing in the Jewish faith that thinks the Messiah will be 'raised from the dead'.
I think what you mean to say is that there is nothing in Rabbinic Judaism about a messiah rising from the dead.

Rabbinic Judaism is nothing like the Old Testament religion, so your argument really doesn't have a lot of meaning.

If Isaiah can write of the "suffering servant" in chapter 53, he implies recovery if not resurrection. If King David can speak of his own resurrection in Psalms 23, the messiah can't be inferior.

cnorman18

Post #49

Post by cnorman18 »

[Replying to post 48 by The Me's]

"And, of course, I note once again that the issue of a MAN being worshiped as GOD, a key component of Christian belief that is absolutely absent from and contradictory to everything in Jewish belief, teaching and tradition, is still being assiduously avoided here...."

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Post #50

Post by The Me's »

cnorman18 wrote: [Replying to post 48 by The Me's]

"And, of course, I note once again that the issue of a MAN being worshiped as GOD, a key component of Christian belief that is absolutely absent from and contradictory to everything in Jewish belief, teaching and tradition, is still being assiduously avoided here...."
I'm not sure whom you're quoting nor why this is relevant.

Jesus has never had a temple built for him, has never been offered animal sacrifices, and has never had adoration from any sect of Christianity that didn't also include God as the source of Jesus' greatness.

I avoided it because I would think that your attempt to misinterpret Christian belief would have been obvious.

(You're also misinterpreting Jewish beliefs. What rabbinic Judaism teaches is not relevant. Christianity relies on OT Judaism. Where rabbinic Judaism disagrees with Christianity, integrity demands that your first impulse should be to investigate whether your own practices are in line with the law and the prophets, seeing how far the rabbis have departed from them.)

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