The Linguistic Miracle

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

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Inigo Montoya
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The Linguistic Miracle

Post #1

Post by Inigo Montoya »

Can someone please explain this to me coherently?

If I doubt the Qur'an is the word of a specific deity, I am to produce a sura equal to one within the texts, yes?

What are the parameters of the challenge? Who is appointed judge to see if I have met the challenge? How is the use of literary devices and my mastery of them viewed outside of a subjective lens to grant fair trial?

This challenge makes no sense to me, nor do I see how the meeting or failing of it infers anything about the text's truth or about the existence of a god.

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Post #2

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

…and therein lies the devious brilliance of it. Whatever you come up with that excels any surah will simply be dismissed since the rules are so ambiguous.
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

Apollo
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Re: The Linguistic Miracle

Post #3

Post by Apollo »

Inigo Montoya wrote: Can someone please explain this to me coherently?

If I doubt the Qur'an is the word of a specific deity, I am to produce a sura equal to one within the texts, yes?

What are the parameters of the challenge? Who is appointed judge to see if I have met the challenge? How is the use of literary devices and my mastery of them viewed outside of a subjective lens to grant fair trial?

This challenge makes no sense to me, nor do I see how the meeting or failing of it infers anything about the text's truth or about the existence of a god.
The core idea is simple. If you do not agree with the Qur'an, you should be able to produce a superior - or at least equal - text. Surely you should be able to, because you claim to see a flaw in the text of some kind. Furthermore, if you COULD prove that the brilliance of the Qur'an can be created by imperfect authors - that would show that a supernatural entity is not required to write such a text.

Of course, the whole argument falls apart when one applies it honestly.

"I do not believe that the play Hamlet was written by a deity"
"Then you must write a play just as good, otherwise the only explanation is that it was written by a deity"
"Um... Let's check your reasoning there."

Not only are the standards of the test largely self-fulfilling (the Qur'an is supposed to be perfect, therefore any deviation from the Qur'an is inherently less perfect), but the reasoning behind the test doesn't work.

However, state that in a flowery way and it sure sounds good. Most challenges to non-believers seem to work like this, they sound good on an emotional or intuitive level and that's normally good enough for a believer - because they are fighting the state of uncertainty and doubt regarding an established conclusion, not specifically trying to start with the evidence and see where it leads.

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Re: The Linguistic Miracle

Post #4

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

Apollo wrote:However, state that in a flowery way and it sure sounds good. Most challenges to non-believers seem to work like this, they sound good on an emotional or intuitive level and that's normally good enough for a believer - because they are fighting the state of uncertainty and doubt regarding an established conclusion, not specifically trying to start with the evidence and see where it leads.
Precisely. In fact, in terms of dawah (preaching to unbelievers in an attempt to convert them, and related eccentricities of this sort), emotional arguments are a good enough reason to convert to Islam. If, however, you apostatise from the religion, you are faced with deep over-analysis from believers, and told your reasons are not good enough for abandoning Islam.

Apparently this is a complete contrast with Judaism. I think cnorman said you have to study to know what you're getting into if you're converting to Judaism, and can't make an off-the-cuff declaration of faith.
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

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Re: The Linguistic Miracle

Post #5

Post by Goat »

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Apollo wrote:However, state that in a flowery way and it sure sounds good. Most challenges to non-believers seem to work like this, they sound good on an emotional or intuitive level and that's normally good enough for a believer - because they are fighting the state of uncertainty and doubt regarding an established conclusion, not specifically trying to start with the evidence and see where it leads.
Precisely. In fact, in terms of dawah (preaching to unbelievers in an attempt to convert them, and related eccentricities of this sort), emotional arguments are a good enough reason to convert to Islam. If, however, you apostatise from the religion, you are faced with deep over-analysis from believers, and told your reasons are not good enough for abandoning Islam.

Apparently this is a complete contrast with Judaism. I think cnorman said you have to study to know what you're getting into if you're converting to Judaism, and can't make an off-the-cuff declaration of faith.

You have a lot of deep studying as a matter of fact. Converts tend to know the faith a lot better than the people born in it.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

paarsurrey1
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Post #6

Post by paarsurrey1 »

The One-True-God has mentioned in the beginning of this chapter/Surah of Quran:

[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif Lam Mim.*
[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
[2:4] Who believe in the unseen and observe Prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
[2:5] And who believe in that which has been revealed to thee, and that which was revealed before thee, and they have firm faith in what is yet to come.
[2:6] It is they who follow the guidance of their Lord and it is they who shall prosper.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/s ... r.php?ch=2
* It is abriviation of the sentence in Arabic the translation of which is “I am God who knows the most�.
OOOOOOO
And then it has been mentioned later in the chapter:
[2:22] O ye men, worship your Lord Who created you and those who were before you, that you may become righteous;
[2:23] Who made the earth a bed for you, and the heaven a roof, and caused water to come down from the clouds and therewith brought forth fruits for your sustenance. Set not up, therefore, equals to Allah, while you know.
[2:24] And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a Chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful.
[2:25] But if you do it not — and never shall you do it — then guard against the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for the disbelievers.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/s ... 2&verse=24
It is very reasonable to state all of this. Right, please?

Did anyone accept the offer/proposal in the time of Muhammad, please?
Anybody, please

Regards

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elphidium55
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Perfect Book

Post #7

Post by elphidium55 »

This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,

No-I do not believe this. The Quran is scripture just as the Old Testament, the Gospel of John, the Bhagavad Gita and The Book of Mormon are, just to name a few. Whatever else scripture may be, it is, above all else, religious propaganda.

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