Which child did Abraham attempt to sacrifice?

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snappyanswer
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Which child did Abraham attempt to sacrifice?

Post #1

Post by snappyanswer »

How does the issue about the descendants of Abraham get settled in the world of religion as based on who Abraham tried to sacrifice.

In the Bible Ishmael was to be ONE nation. Genesis 21
The Birth of Isaac
1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac [a] to the son Sarah bore him. 4 When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him, as God commanded him. 5 Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
6 Sarah said, "God has brought me laughter, and everyone who hears about this will laugh with me." 7 And she added, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? Yet I have borne him a son in his old age."

Hagar and Ishmael Sent Away
8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."
11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring."




Why do Muslims claim to be descedants of Ishmael?

Which child did Abraham try to sacrifice?

If Muslims teach and believe that Abraham actually sacrificed Ishmael but a lamb was miraculaously substituted, how did this different account get communicated to the earlier Muslims since the Biblical account of Abraham sacrificing Isaac was written down centuries before Mohammad was born?

From the Bible, an account believed by both Jews and Christians:

Genesis 22
The Offering of Isaac
1Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
2He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."


Muslims teach that it was not Isaac but Ishmael that Abraham was told to sacrifice:

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_2 ... _islam.htm

God tested Abraham by asking him to sacrifice his beloved son Ishmael. He told about his vision to his son saying: “O, Son! I see in vision that I slay thee.” (37:102) Ishmael, an obedient and dutiful son replied: “O, Father! Act as thou hast been bidden (by the Lord) and thou wilt, if God willeth, find me of the patient one” (37:102). When Abraham laid down his son Ishmael and tied his hands and legs lest the boy should struggle while being slain and blind folded himself with a piece of cloth, passed the knife across, cutting the throat. When he uncovered his eyes he found a lamb laid slain and Ishmael safe and sound standing nearby. Abraham got worried. He thought his sacrifice was not accepted by God. But God has substituted lamb for Ishmael. The Quran says: “O, Abraham! Of course thou hast faithfully fulfilled the dream, thou art of the truthful ones, but verily it is an open test, we have substituted it with a greater sacrifice. We have transferred it to later generations.” (37:105-108).


Also from: http://www.submission.org/suras/sura37.html

Sura - 37 The Arrangers.(Al-Saffat)
Order Of Revelation 56, Verses: 182

37:102] When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, GOD willing, patient."*


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*37:102 The Most Merciful never advocates evil (7:28). As with Job, Satan claimed that Abraham loved his son too much, and was permitted to put Abraham to that severe test.

[37:103] They both submitted, and he put his forehead down (to sacrifice him).

God Intervenes to Save Abraham and Ismail

[37:104] We called him: "O Abraham.

[37:105] "You have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous.

[37:106] That was an exacting test indeed.

[37:107] We ransomed (Ismail) by substituting an animal sacrifice.

[37:108] And we preserved his history for subsequent generations.

[37:109] Peace be upon Abraham.

[37:110] We thus reward the righteous.

[37:111] He is one of our believing servants.

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ST88
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Re: Which child did Abraham attempt to sacrifice?

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Post by ST88 »

snappyanswer wrote:How does the issue about the descendants of Abraham get settled in the world of religion as based on who Abraham tried to sacrifice....

Which child did Abraham try to sacrifice?
I believe that Islam teaches that because Genesis uses the phrase "your son, your only son" several times, and since there can only be a singular time when Abraham had an "only son", and since Ishmael was about, what, thirteen, at the time of Isaac's birth, It must have been Ishmael. The Qu'uran doesn't specify which son it is, also saying "your son, your only son", but arrives at Ishmael by logical conclusion.

Another interesting take on this story that I have heard is that a son really was sacrificed in the original story, but that hagiographic lines were substituted for the bloody scene. Support for this can be found in Genesis line 20:19, which says that Abraham returned to his servants from the altar (not Abraham and his son, his only son]. Since a character named Isaac is shown later on in the story, this sacrificed boy can't be Isaac. Similarly, it can't be Ishmael. So who is it?

Since this story appears in Genesis apropos of nothing (i.e., while sojourning in the land of the Philistines), we may possibly conclude that the entire episode was inserted from a different source -- neither Abraham nor Isaac, and altered so as to appeal to a Hebrew audience. Since the "your son, your only son" does not apply at this point in the story (Abraham has two sons, both of which were recognized [and one might say encouraged) by God, the insertion of this story is either an editorial error or a deliberate attempt at confusion.
Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings forgotten. -- George Orwell, 1984

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Post by 1John2_26 »

Since this story appears in Genesis apropos of nothing (i.e., while sojourning in the land of the Philistines), we may possibly conclude that the entire episode was inserted from a different source -- neither Abraham nor Isaac, and altered so as to appeal to a Hebrew audience. Since the "your son, your only son" does not apply at this point in the story (Abraham has two sons, both of which were recognized [and one might say encouraged) by God, the insertion of this story is either an editorial error or a deliberate attempt at confusion.
Abraham had only one son of the Promise.

What if the Bible has come down to us accurately and the old tired excuse about "later insertions" are the statement in error?

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Re: Which child did Abraham attempt to sacrifice?

Post #4

Post by youngborean »

ST88 wrote:
snappyanswer wrote:How does the issue about the descendants of Abraham get settled in the world of religion as based on who Abraham tried to sacrifice....

Which child did Abraham try to sacrifice?
I believe that Islam teaches that because Genesis uses the phrase "your son, your only son" several times, and since there can only be a singular time when Abraham had an "only son", and since Ishmael was about, what, thirteen, at the time of Isaac's birth, It must have been Ishmael. The Qu'uran doesn't specify which son it is, also saying "your son, your only son", but arrives at Ishmael by logical conclusion.

Another interesting take on this story that I have heard is that a son really was sacrificed in the original story, but that hagiographic lines were substituted for the bloody scene. Support for this can be found in Genesis line 20:19, which says that Abraham returned to his servants from the altar (not Abraham and his son, his only son]. Since a character named Isaac is shown later on in the story, this sacrificed boy can't be Isaac. Similarly, it can't be Ishmael. So who is it?

Since this story appears in Genesis apropos of nothing (i.e., while sojourning in the land of the Philistines), we may possibly conclude that the entire episode was inserted from a different source -- neither Abraham nor Isaac, and altered so as to appeal to a Hebrew audience. Since the "your son, your only son" does not apply at this point in the story (Abraham has two sons, both of which were recognized [and one might say encouraged) by God, the insertion of this story is either an editorial error or a deliberate attempt at confusion.

The character is named right at the beginning of the story in verses 2 and 3. There is a point about "your only son". The word used is "yachad" which means a collective unity rather than "echad" which means your "only" in a singular sense. The literal translation would be something like "the one who you are united with". Translators choose only here because Issac was called the only son (in a certain sense) of Abraham already in the text, where Ishmael was called the son of the bondwoman.
Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Gen 21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he [is] thy seed.
There seems to be more in the Hebrew of this text than the "only one" aspect.

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Re: Which child did Abraham attempt to sacrifice?

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Post by ST88 »

youngborean wrote:The character is named right at the beginning of the story in verses 2 and 3. There is a point about "your only son". The word used is "yachad" which means a collective unity rather than "echad" which means your "only" in a singular sense. The literal translation would be something like "the one who you are united with". Translators choose only here because Issac was called the only son (in a certain sense) of Abraham already in the text, where Ishmael was called the son of the bondwoman.
Yes, you are correct about "yachad". That would appear to be yet another Protestant mistranslation of the text. As far as I can tell, it should say, "The son who is closest to you," or something like that. Regardless, the Qu'uran says "only son". It seems odd that it would be mistranslated into Arabic as well.

About the name in verses 2 and 3. According to the third-son theory, the name Isaac was pasted into this story in order to fit it into this narrative. The part about the angel stopping Abraham's hand is part of this paste job.
Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings forgotten. -- George Orwell, 1984

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Post by Cathar1950 »

I was reading an Archeology book a while back and they had a statue of a Ram caught in the thicket from Summer. It dated about a thousand years before the story of Abraham was suppose to be written. It may have been an old tale later used or part of the Canaanite stories later incorporated into the Genesis stories. It is possible that the Koran did the same thing.
I always found it interesting that El told him to sacrifice his son and an angel of YHWH stoped him. It is also possible that he was sacrificed as was done at that time to the first born son.

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Re: Which child did Abraham attempt to sacrifice?

Post #7

Post by Arthra »

ST88 wrote:
snappyanswer wrote:How does the issue about the descendants of Abraham get settled in the world of religion as based on who Abraham tried to sacrifice....

Which child did Abraham try to sacrifice?
Another interesting take on this story that I have heard is that a son really was sacrificed in the original story, but that hagiographic lines were substituted for the bloody scene. Support for this can be found in Genesis line 20:19, which says that Abraham returned to his servants from the altar (not Abraham and his son, his only son]. ....

__________________________

Sometimes when I see Bible verses quoted or cited I actually check up on them! In this case the verse in question is found at Genesis 22:19 and not at 20:19 as noted above.

It's true the verse simply says "Abraham went back to his servants..." whether you read into this that he came back without his son...is to me a little conjectural.

When we read say in Genesis 20:1 "Abraham left there for the land of the Negeb and settled between Kadesh and Shur..." are we to assume that only Abraham left? No...because Sarah is mentioned later in verse 20:2... And it was probably not just Abragam and Sarah but an entourage of servants and drivers with them including Ishmael who was born earlier in Genesis 16:15-16. So the mere lack of mention in Gen. 22:19 of Isaac or Ishmael is not to me that convincing that Abraham returned without his son.

But there do appear to be some structural problems in the Bible narrative as follows:

After Ishmael and Hagar are dismissed...

In Genesis 21:14 Abraham "put the child (Ishmael) on her (Hagar) shoulder and sent her away....in Genesis 21:15-16 Hagar "abandoned the child (Ishamel) under a bush".

Abram was eighty six when Ishmael was born (See Genesis 16:16) and he was a hundred years old when Isaac was born (Genesis 21:6) so simple math would tell you Ishmael must have been fourteen years old when Isaac was born. Now consider how Abraham would put his fourteen year old child on Hagar's shoulder and how Hagar would just abandon her fourteen year old son under a bush?!

- Art

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Post by palmera »

What if the Bible has come down to us accurately and the old tired excuse about "later insertions" are the statement in error?
There is historical evidence of "later insertions." To start with, read up on palimpsests (wbtw isnot only a great word, but a fascinating subject matter and a great source for metaphor)
Men at ease have contempt for misfortune
as the fate of those whose feet are slipping.

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Post #9

Post by Cathar1950 »

What if the Bible has come down to us accurately and the old tired excuse about "later insertions" are the statement in error?
It is very unlikely. If it was accurate what would that mean anyway?
The data seems to imply that the stuff was no even written until the 7th and 6th centurys BCE and still reworked later.

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Re: Which child did Abraham attempt to sacrifice?

Post #10

Post by benmaarof »

Why do Muslims claim to be descedants of Ishmael?
Please check your sources again. I'm a Muslim but I don't claim to be a descendent of Ishmael because I'm not an Arab.
Which child did Abraham try to sacrifice?
If Muslims teach and believe that Abraham actually sacrificed Ishmael but a lamb was miraculaously substituted, how did this different account get communicated to the earlier Muslims since the Biblical account of Abraham sacrificing Isaac was written down centuries before Mohammad was born?
According to the OT which was written by the Jews, about the Jews and for the Jews, Isaac.

Christians and Jews probably think that the sacrificing of Isaac is the true version because they believe that the Jewish scribe or rabbi who wrote it was telling the truth.

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