Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
HansKecht
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 3:58 pm

Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #1

Post by HansKecht »

I can't find a religion that makes sense to me, or that has enough proof to get me into it. Would it be wrong of me to make my own?

User avatar
Hector Barbosa
Apprentice
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Scandinavia/UK

Re: Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #61

Post by Hector Barbosa »

[Replying to post 59 by Divine Insight]
The empty tomb is simply a metaphor.
hmm..if the tomb was not literally empty, where is Jesus body then and how on earth was it taken away without Romans noticing it, and concealed without neither Jew or Roman discovering it?

User avatar
Divine Insight
Savant
Posts: 18080
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Here & Now
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #62

Post by Divine Insight »

Hector Barbosa wrote: [Replying to post 51 by Divine Insight]

Well you certainly have me wanting to try it now. Sounds very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain so much of it :)
Well, unfortunately, I haven't truly conveyed some deeper concepts that may be informative to know. For one thing I would never point anyone directly to "Wicca". The reason being that there is no single consistent form of Wicca. Especially in the USA where Solitary Eclectic Wicca has become so popular. And even that longer description has no consistent form. It's just based on diverse ideas from all around the world (the reason for including the term "Eclectic"). You pick and choose what words for you.

Why then bother to call it "Wicca" at all? Well in my case, recall the four premises I am personal using:

1. Pantheism or Panentheism is accepted as being the essence of reality.
2. There is some value in Shamanic Journeying
3. The use of thought-forms has psychological validity
4. Ancient myths of Gods, Goddess, Spirits, and such are useful.

In my case, "Wicca" comes into play due to choices I've made in #4. I could have chosen another paradigm altogether. So in a sense the "Wicca" part of my paradigm is only on aspect of it. I would say that the first three points are far more important. You can chose whatever you like for #4. Maybe even some sort of secular ideas. Although, if you've already embraced #1 you've already allowed for the consideration of some mystical essence to reality, right?

In other words, it's not really Wicca that is important here. I think the may reason I keep referring to Wicca is because I got some of my best ideas from reading books on Wicca and conversing with others who associate their practices with Wicca.

~~~~~~

Having clarified the above I would also like to make a few observation about the circle, the four compass directions, and the four spiritual elements.

These ideas too are not unique to "Wicca". These ideas are used on Buddhism, North American Indian rituals. And basically all over the world in many ancient cultures. The idea of "casting a sacred circle" is a very old idea that seems to have permeated much of ancient humanity. And it's perfectly natural then to imagine portals in the four obvious direction, North, East, South, and West.

Each of those directions are then usually associated with different "deities" that rule over various aspects of the human condition. But if you prefer (as I do) instead of thinking of these as deities just think of them as different states of consciousness. This is why I often say that this has value even in secular psychology. No deities required. :D

So this idea is not unique to "Wicca", but Wicca has certainly focused on this general idea of casting a circle based on these four concepts of direction, deity domain, or states of consciousness.

~~~~

The final thing I would like to comment on is my use of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water to associate with these four domains of consciousness. Of course, this isn't my idea, Wicca uses these as well. They no doubt came from the Greek idea that these are the four physical elements of all creation. But in this context they actually represent the different aspects of human consciousness.

So with this in mind I would like to elaborate on these concept in a bit more details.

Earth:

Earth represents our physical manifestation in this world. Because of this it also represents all of the following:

Our physical body
All physical objects in this life
Incarnation <-- the abstract concept of being in this life at all.
Sovereignty <-- The fact that we are a free individual within this life.
And anything else you can add that would fit in this concept of consciousness.

Air

Air represents analytical thought.

Logic
Reason
Analysis
Even poor logic and poor thinking!

It's the state of consciousness of intellectual reasoning (whether done well or poorly)

So everything in the direction of Air (which is East in my model) has to do with this state of consciousness.

Fire

Fire represents passion or "will". It's the ground of our being. We are our will.

Free will <-- the ability to chose
Passion <-- the desire to chose
Sorcery <--- the desire and ability to make things become manifest in the world
(Note I use the term "sorcery" here but actually anything we plan to create and then actually create is covered here, even if we create these things using totally mundane methods like hammers and nails)
Creation <--- an alternative word for "sorcery" in this context)

Fire (as an abstract consciousnesses) is the basically the source of creation and the will to create. It is the source consciousness of what we are.

For this reason, Fire also represents for me the source of all creation, (i.e. the reason pantheism exists at all)

Two more concepts need to go with the consciousness of Fire:

Purity - is another concept for fire, because what we chose to create can be pure, or impure.
Poison - is a concept I personally use to represent "evil". It is simply the things we create that contain "poison" (i.e. are impure)

So when facing south (in my model) this represents the source of my being and my creativity along with all the things I can create (i.e. purity or poison)

It just helps you to focus on what you're actually bringing into this world when you chose to create anything. ;)

Finally we have Water:

Water

Water represents our emotions and our empathy (or lack of empathy)

This is our consciousness of emotional awareness.

Love
Hate
Compassion
Relationships
Social interactions
etc.

When standing looking West (in my model) I am facing the portal of emotional consciousness. And therefore I dwell on those thoughts with conscious awareness and can evaluate how well I'm doing in that psychological department. It also helps me to decide whether I'm currently on a good course or if I need to reevaluate my heading.

See, once again, a very useful psychological tool that even secularists would do well to employ.

Why would this help a secularist?

Because it's a ritual that is performed on a regular basis and forces the practitioner to continually be aware of every facet of their own conscious behavior.

Could this be done in a more mundane way without all this fun circle stuff?

Sure! But when do it in a mundane way when this is so much more FUN! :D

Besides, there are additional techniques that actually HELP:

~~~~~

I haven't even mentioned this, but in these rituals incense is used, along with meditative music, often with a very consistent drum beat that helps to focus the mind.

The scents of the incense actually has a very strong affect on helping the mind focus on specific thought. Memory is influence by our sense of smell more than any other sense. This is a scientifically verify fact. And it does work. This is why we use many different scents of incense in these rituals. We tend to associate different scents with different memories, and in doing so those memories and thoughts can be easily called up by burning the proper scent of incense.

Oh well, enough of this silliness. I just wanted to point out that there's actually quite a bit to it and it isn't even necessarily "Wicca". It's just that people who write about Wicca often employ these types of techniques.

A fellow named Christopher Penczak wrote a series of books on Witchcraft. He doesn't call this "Wicca" specifically but the ideas he covers are basically the same.

The idea, which he himself suggests in these books, is to take what works for you and ignore the what doesn't appeal to you. So if you chose to read any of these keep in mind that it's up to you to use what you find appealing and skip over anything you don't care for.

He wrote a lot of books, but the best ones to start with would be the following:

The Inner Temple of Witchcraft
The Outer Temple of Witchcraft
The Shamanic Temple of Witchcraft
The Temple of High Witchcraft

All of the above are links to the books on Amazon but you might be able to find these at your local library for free?

I think some of these have been put up on the Internet as PDF files too.

In fact, here's the Shamanic Temple book in PDF format:

The Shamanic Temple of Witchcraft in PDF format
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

User avatar
Divine Insight
Savant
Posts: 18080
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Here & Now
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #63

Post by Divine Insight »

Hector Barbosa wrote: [Replying to post 59 by Divine Insight]
The empty tomb is simply a metaphor.
hmm..if the tomb was not literally empty, where is Jesus body then and how on earth was it taken away without Romans noticing it, and concealed without neither Jew or Roman discovering it?
Many non-theists have been posting plausible answers to these questions for years. In fact, the Gospels clearly state that the body was handed over to some guy for burial. It wasn't taken to the tome by the Roman Soldiers. The Roman Soldiers weren't assigned to guard the tomb until later. So for all they knew the body was never placed in the tomb to being with and they were sent to guard an already empty tomb.

What might have happened to the actual body is anyone's guess. There's a village in India that claims that Jesus survived the crucifixion and went to India and was buried there. They claim that his remains are still in that grave. They claim that Jesus was an incarnation of the Buddha himself.

Did Jesus die? A BBC Documentary
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

User avatar
Hector Barbosa
Apprentice
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Scandinavia/UK

Re: Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #64

Post by Hector Barbosa »

[Replying to post 61 by Divine Insight]

hehe..thanks. I can see the appeal in it as far as fun and entertainment goes for sure. The ancient elements of Fire, Earth, Water and Air are interesting for sure and its fun to be able to freely create new connections and associations which can make logical sense but really more than anything show creative possibilities.

I see that a lot in science fiction, fantasy, music and art and I like it very much though it rarely takes me much further to the deeper answers about existence, purpose or good. But perhaps creativity in itself IS a argument for existence, purpose and good its certainly better than destruction and having no ideas :)

In that way I can understand the appeal behind creating a new religion as well.

Where things get difficult though is that when you have a lot of options and freedom of expression it can be very difficult for many to agree on a direction if you don't have an objective source and so you can get as many different religions almost as you can people.

The battle between social connection and individualistic expression is quite a challenging one, especially when your intelligence and creativity get far enough ahead of the norm, for then most just can't follow your way of thinking, intensity, creative genius, free-spirit or love for truth.

I suppose it is really the same obstacle we have even here on this debate site, where the purpose attempts to be very specific, and yet most here find it very difficult agreeing on much.

User avatar
Hector Barbosa
Apprentice
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Scandinavia/UK

Re: Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #65

Post by Hector Barbosa »

[Replying to post 62 by Divine Insight]

This appear to be a Islamic source, why should that be any more reliable than any other? I have never before heard the claim about "one man" being handed the body, and though I don't doubt you can find many talk about it and claim it, its really completely irrelevant without actual evidence of ancient data to have recorded such a event, evidence to prove who this man was and what his motive was.

I can not see any reason to believe this source without actual evidence.

For why would the Romans hand the body over to a Christian and not a Jew or Roman? That makes no sense giving that they had just executed the man for having claimed to be what the Christians believe.

And if there is evidence of a "one man" burying Jesus, why has this evidence first come out now, and what does that say about the reliability of the sources which has concealed it so long or been so slow to find it?

It opens up reason to put a lot more questions of authority, leaders, scientists, historians and not just religious people.

I am getting very tired of the dishonesty of the masses, for I have already found countless of evidence of dishonesty by ALL of these sources.

So for your to give just one more will not just throw in reason to question religion which I already do, but also every other authority and source in this world which is beginning to seem less and less reliable.

User avatar
Divine Insight
Savant
Posts: 18080
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Here & Now
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #66

Post by Divine Insight »

Hector Barbosa wrote: I see that a lot in science fiction, fantasy, music and art and I like it very much though it rarely takes me much further to the deeper answers about existence, purpose or good. But perhaps creativity in itself IS a argument for existence, purpose and good its certainly better than destruction and having no ideas :)
Good point. It's not the claim of Wicca to answer those questions. So there is no attempt to answer them here. All that I've described is nothing other than a helpful paradigm for you, as an individual, or for a group of like-minded individuals, so share in the creative objectives.

The only thing that everyone must agree on in Wicca is Wicca Rede. "Do as you will, but harm none". If you aren't willing to abide by that Rede, then you can't claim to be practicing "Wicca".
Hector Barbosa wrote: Where things get difficult though is that when you have a lot of options and freedom of expression it can be very difficult for many to agree on a direction if you don't have an objective source and so you can get as many different religions almost as you can people.
There is nothing in Wicca that claims it should be the foundation of a government.

This idea you are expressing seems to be more in line with the Christian Tradition that there exists a God who has given humans commandments and that those commandments serve as the foundation rules of government.

In might be informative to observe that this hasn't worked very well for Christian theocracies over the centuries. Not only did this view cause much animosity between the Christians and non-Christians, but it even created much disagreement between the Christians themselves. So Christianity most certainly hasn't answered the problem you have raised here in any case.
Hector Barbosa wrote: The battle between social connection and individualistic expression is quite a challenging one, especially when your intelligence and creativity get far enough ahead of the norm, for then most just can't follow your way of thinking, intensity, creative genius, free-spirit or love for truth.
I agree. And this is why it would be futile for me to try to create a "Wicca Theocracy". It shouldn't be the purpose of a spiritual paradigm to become a theocracy anyway.

I would be more than willing to live in harmony with Atheists. :D

Buddhists, seem to be pretty cool too.

In fact, I personally wouldn't have a problem living in harmony with Christians. But can you see the Christians condoning my practice of Wicca and rejection of Christianity?

The negativity isn't coming from Wicca. It's the Christians who would start accusing me of worshiping Satan and refusing to bow down and accept Christ as my King and Authoritarian Dictator. And they wouldn't even stop there until they had me condemning gay people and everything thing else. Some Christians even claim that it's blaspheme against their Authoritarian God to support the scientific knowledge of Evolution. I can show you Christian Pastors in the USA who preach that the science of Evolution is the work of Satan.

So Christianity certainly has nothing to offer in terms of helping humanity get along.
Hector Barbosa wrote: I suppose it is really the same obstacle we have even here on this debate site, where the purpose attempts to be very specific, and yet most here find it very difficult agreeing on much.
Well, perhaps the major topic we actually need to create a thread on is whether religion should be the basis for government then.

My answer to that question would be no.

I'm not proposing Wicca as a world theocracy.

I merely explained it to you in some detail because you seemed to be interested. 8-)
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

User avatar
Hector Barbosa
Apprentice
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Scandinavia/UK

Re: Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #67

Post by Hector Barbosa »

[Replying to post 65 by Divine Insight]
This idea you are expressing seems to be more in line with the Christian Tradition
I would rather say it is in line with every major organisation including religion, but also political organizations, businesses, atheist groups etc. It's a problem in general any time you have big groups where people try to conform to a norm at the expense of individuality. Nazism is a good example of this.
I agree. And this is why it would be futile for me to try to create a "Wicca Theocracy". It shouldn't be the purpose of a spiritual paradigm to become a theocracy anyway.

I would be more than willing to live in harmony with Atheists. Very Happy


Well there I have more difficulty, for I find it very difficult living in harmony with either. I find most theists and atheists so annoyingly dogmatic :D
Well, perhaps the major topic we actually need to create a thread on is whether religion should be the basis for government then.

My answer to that question would be no.
Mine too, but along that line of argument atheism and wicca should not be basis for government either.

User avatar
Divine Insight
Savant
Posts: 18080
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Here & Now
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #68

Post by Divine Insight »

Hector Barbosa wrote: This appear to be a Islamic source, why should that be any more reliable than any other? I have never before heard the claim about "one man" being handed the body, and though I don't doubt you can find many talk about it and claim it, its really completely irrelevant without actual evidence of ancient data to have recorded such a event, evidence to prove who this man was and what his motive was.

I can not see any reason to believe this source without actual evidence.
I'm not asking you to believe anything. I simply pointed out that alternative stories exist.
Hector Barbosa wrote: For why would the Romans hand the body over to a Christian and not a Jew or Roman? That makes no sense giving that they had just executed the man for having claimed to be what the Christians believe.
According to the Gospels the Romans didn't execute Jesus. At least not by Roman decree.

Pontius Pilate exonerated Jesus of all charges:


Luke.23

[4] Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.

John.18

[38] Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

John.19

[4] Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.
[5] Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!

[6] When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
[7] The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

So the Romans did not condemn Jesus on any charges. Pilate fully exonerated Jesus of any wrong doing.

According to the Gospels Pilate said to the Jewish Chief Priests, "Take ye him, and crucify him". It was the Jewish Chief Priest who then carried out the actual crucifixion. Were they allocated some Roman Soldiers to actually physically carry out the task? Evidently so. But to say that it was Rome who crucified Jesus is dead wrong according to the Christian Gospels themselves. Pilate exonerated Jesus of all charges and found no fault in him. He even washed his hands of the whole affair and told the Jewish Priest that Jesus' blood will be on their hands, not on his. Those verses can be found in the Gospels too.

So the Romans couldn't care less what happened to this crucified body. In fact, when the Romans crucified someone they would NEVER place that body in a tomb, or even bury it. They wouldn't give it that much respect.

Also according to the Gospels it was once again the Jewish Chief Priests who went to Pilate requesting that Roman Guards be placed at Jesus' tomb. This wasn't a concern of the Romans.
Hector Barbosa wrote: And if there is evidence of a "one man" burying Jesus, why has this evidence first come out now, and what does that say about the reliability of the sources which has concealed it so long or been so slow to find it?

It opens up reason to put a lot more questions of authority, leaders, scientists, historians and not just religious people.
This isn't anything new. It's written in the Gospels. It's been there all along.

Matthew 27:
[57] When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
[58] He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
[59] And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
[60] And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

Hector Barbosa wrote: I am getting very tired of the dishonesty of the masses, for I have already found countless of evidence of dishonesty by ALL of these sources.

So for your to give just one more will not just throw in reason to question religion which I already do, but also every other authority and source in this world which is beginning to seem less and less reliable.
Well, I'm not claiming to know what happened 2000 years ago. But everything I've told you about Jesus is written in the Gospels.

Whether Jesus survived and was taken to India I have no clue. All I know is that according to the Gospels themselves Pilate gave the body to this one man and supposedly it was this man and his private servants who placed Jesus body in the tomb, or not.

Who would know?

It certainly wasn't the Romans who placed Jesus body in the tomb. Even the Gospels tell us that in Matthew 27.
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

User avatar
Divine Insight
Savant
Posts: 18080
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Here & Now
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #69

Post by Divine Insight »

Hector Barbosa wrote: Mine too, but along that line of argument atheism and wicca should not be basis for government either.
I'm in complete agreement with you on Wicca.

I'm not so sure I agree with you on "Atheism". Atheism is NOT Secular Naturalism.

Atheism simply says that we have no reason to believe any God myths are true, and so until we have reasons to believe in those myths we shouldn't be treating any of those myths as the "Word of God".

What's wrong with that? :-k
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

User avatar
Hector Barbosa
Apprentice
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Scandinavia/UK

Re: Do you think it's wrong for people to create a religion?

Post #70

Post by Hector Barbosa »

[Replying to post 68 by Divine Insight]
I'm not so sure I agree with you on "Atheism". Atheism is NOT Secular Naturalism.

Atheism simply says that we have no reason to believe any God myths are true, and so until we have reasons to believe in those myths we shouldn't be treating any of those myths as the "Word of God".

What's wrong with that?
As a requirement or basis for Government? Everything!

Whats wrong with believing in God?

How can prejudice and injustice against theists be justified when it can not be proved that they are wrong?

Such line of thinking is downright dangerous, and quite in opposition to the creative, free-spirited open mind we just defended with Wicca.

Can you not see that?

What will be next then?

Lynching gifted children, kids who are more sensitive or intelligent than the norm?
What then would be of the handicapped or those with mental illnesses?

The entire US constitution, freedom, justice and human rights would fall if we allowed such thinking to win.

You can never justify any prejudice against anyone without proof of Malicious intent no matter how much you dislike or disagree with what they believe in.

The beliefs has to be proved to be wrong for there to be a justification, and that has not happened.

Post Reply