Atheists

[Faithful One]

Seems the online community of atheist outnumbers the Christian online community , when it comes to discussing religion . This has been my personal experience for over a decade of debating with atheists. Why do you think this is , also, do you think this is a fair statement , as far as being outnumbered online?

I do not believe this is the case as far as the U.S population as a whole goes , meaning more believe in God, or some type of creator or God , than do not believe in some type of God , but online they seem to outnumber believers in God , or a God.

What do you think sparks this curiosity, if you feel this is a curiosity , if not please state what you think the motivation is then.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

but when it comes to defining that God and what that God supposedly expects from humans they are extremely divided against each other.

There is much infighting among religions , but for the most part with Christians , the main message is the same . The Muslims also have differences , but for the most part live in peace together , until outside forces try to stir up sectarian violence , left alone , they would live in peace . The Shiite and the Sunni even share the same mosques to pray.

So they trudge through the differences and find common ground enough to keep some remnant of peace among themselves.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 7 by Paprika]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'discussing religion'. If you mean discussion over whether God exists then as far as I have observed you're right: lots of atheists are angry at God or Christians and thus need an outlet,

I am speaking of the back and forths on the different perspectives of religions , or the back and forths trying to justify Gods actions as cruel, or not cruel ,moral, or immoral.

I believe you could be right as far as an outlet goes, good point. This goes to how angry they would be even if they that thought God was real, or would that change their perspective if they did find out God was real , of course they would no longer be atheists , but One would still wonder if the anger and resentment would remain.

while Christians don't generally have a similar impulse that induces them to defend the faith as vigorously. However, there are many Christians who discuss and disagree fervently about the details of their faith.

Yes , but as I stated earlier , the main message of the bible is agreed on by Catholics, Protestants alike , they have differences but the most important belief is the same.

I believe some have this impulse , they just do not act on it. Good point though.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 9 by OnceConvinced]

I believe the Internet is so popular with non-believers, because it creates and equal playing field. They can speak up against the evils and lies of religion. They can answer back. Unlike TV, radio, books, magazines, tracts, preaching in the pulpit, nobody can answer back. They just have to listen or read. With the Internet it's a lot more interactive. You can argue. You can debate.

Agreed , excellent observation , a bit to matter of fact , on the " evil and lies of religion " , but very good answer .

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]

The religion itself can be seen as an insult to human intelligence. Many popular atheists and scientists have voiced this perspective.

And therefore it's quite natural to become angry with a religious institution that is trying to use a God concept to enforce ignorance and immorality upon the atheists via governmental laws.

The anger in that respect is quite justifiable.

We seem to have a recurring theme of blowing off steam , anger , an outlet. Would this go to the point that " illogical " things , peeves them to the point that they must vent about it? i.e

They do not have to sit quiet in the pews and bite their tongues.


I will agree with the anger part, as this has been my experience also , an anger at God , (if he were real) ,,not so much an anger at the believer , although that does come about at times.

[Divine Insight]

I will agree with the anger part, as this has been my experience also , an anger at God , (if he were real) ,,not so much an anger at the believer , although that does come about at times.

It's probably true that atheists would be "angry with God" if there actually did exist a God as described by the bible. I certainly wouldn't care much for that God. Although I would feel more sorry for it than angry at it.

But that assumes that there is actually a God behind the religion. If there is no God behind it, then the anger is directed at the religion, not any imagined God that doesn't even exist.

But oh heck yeah. I would be extremely angry with any religion that preaches the stuff preached by the Biblical Religions. Precisely because it does indeed preach immoral concepts under the pretense that it has some almighty all-righteous God behind it.

I confess that if the God of the Bible were real, I would be extremely disappointed and depressed. It would be the "Worst News" I ever heard. As far as becoming angry with the God, it seems to me that that would be pointless. Feeling sorry for the God, and disappointed in the God, would be more realistic.

Christianity, Islam, or even Judaism are not the slightest bit attractive to me. If we truly were created by the God described in their Holy Books then we are indeed in a very sad situation to be sure. It would most certainly not be "good news" in any case. Not even in the case of Christianity.

In fact, when you stop and think about it, the supposed "Good News" of Christianity is nothing more than a promise that Jesus will "Save us" from the "Bad News" of the Old Testament. So even Christianity basically demands that we place our faith in the "Bad News" before we can even view salvation in Christianity as being "Good News".

Add to this that Jesus himself proclaims in this religion that only "Few" will make it into the kingdom of heaven and most will find their way into destruction and damnation.

That's hardly "Good News" unless a person is arrogant enough to believe that they will be one of the "Few" who are "saved" from the "Bad News".

It's a religion that basically demands that you place your faith in "Bad News" before the "Good News" can even begin to be remotely attractive.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 15 by Divine Insight]

I confess that if the God of the Bible were real, I would be extremely disappointed and depressed. It would be the "Worst News" I ever heard. As far as becoming angry with the God, it seems to me that that would be pointless. Feeling sorry for the God, and disappointed in the God, would be more realistic.

I would hope you would fall to your knees. This sounds like it would be a deep rooted anger. The point is made that anger at the "illogical ", in an. Atheists eyes is a definite motivator to want to be heard and challenge others, but the curiosity still remains , as the questions are never ending.

[Divine Insight]

I would hope you would fall to your knees.

Fall to my knees in what fashion?

Clearly if an "Almighty Demon" exists I would have no choice but to fall to my knees. But it certainly wouldn't be out of any love or respect for the demon.

What kind of a God are you supporting here?

If I'm supposed to be "falling to my knees" out of total LOVE, admiration, and respect, then the God would need to demonstrate those attributes. Not merely demand that I must worship him lest he'll bully me in a barbaric and brutal way. We'd be right back to a demonic God if he behaved like that.

I would need to see at least some sign of intelligence and benevolence before I could love and respect a "God".

I simply don't see that in the God described in the Bible.

In the Old Testament all this God has ever done is attempt to solve problems using totally ignorant, barbaric, and violent means. We should also note that none of his attempts to solve problems ever had a positive outcome as well. He is a God who has failed miserably as a "Father" of humans.

The New Testament doesn't fair any better. If we are to believe that Jesus was the demigod Son of this God sent specifically by this God for the purpose of being brutally crucified at the demands of his own corrupt priests only to serve as yet another "Barbaric Example" of violence and brutality that this God designs and orchestrates. Then the New Testament doesn't shed any positive light on this God either.

I might also add, that according to this religion, and Jesus himself, even this act of brutal desperation will only result in the salvation of a "Few" souls.

This is hardly a God who is very bright.

This would be a creator who is extremely inept and basically looses the vast majority of souls that he creates. That's not an impressive track record for a Creator of Souls.

So even at the very best, this God is extremely inept even if he has well-meaning intent. There would certainly be no reason to revere him. As I said earlier about all we could do is feel sorry for him and his extreme ineptitude.

That's the best we could do.

Falling to our knees isn't going to help this God much. And if he's forcing us to "fall to our knees" lest he'll become the ultimate bully and beat the "hell" out of us by casting us into an eternal state of damnation, then where is there any "goodness" in him?

The "anger" in this religion clearly belongs to this God. He is a God of extreme "wrath". A wrath that apparently has no bounds.

In fact, in Christianity it is precisely this God's wrath that we need to be "saved" from.

So who's angry?

Apparently the Christian God. His wrath is unequaled and apparently eternal.

[Hamsaka]

Seems the online community of atheist outnumbers the Christian online community , when it comes to discussing religion . This has been my personal experience for over a decade of debating with atheists. Why do you think this is , also, do you think this is a fair statement , as far as being outnumbered online?

I do not believe this is the case as far as the U.S population as a whole goes , meaning more believe in God, or some type of creator or God , than do not believe in some type of God , but online they seem to outnumber believers in God , or a God.

What do you think sparks this curiosity, if you feel this is a curiosity , if not please state what you think the motivation is then.

For me and many other skeptics, our curiosity is aimed at the Christians. We don't believe their god exists. In order to understand the Christians, it only follows that we'll end up learning quite a lot about their leader.

Also, many of us were once believing Christians, probably indistinguishable from you, or other theists on this board. Can you imagine if you just stopped believing in God, there is no God, never was, maybe we needed religions to keep us in line, but now -- it's over. There is no God.

That's how it feels from our end. Your god is indistinguishable from all the other gods ever dreamed up. We just know so much because Christianity and it's consequences, both good and bad, are everywhere, literally woven into law, politics, medical research, education. Some Christians don't think it is enough, but the influence is huge. And it's been getting out of hand.

That's another reason atheists are online talking to Christians. Some of us are angry. Mostly I just want to talk some sense into you. I know how that sounds. But I am very concerned, or else I wouldn't be here, I think that is a shared sentiment. Above all, we're sharing the planet, and aren't 'planning' for a Rapture or Apocalypse unless Iran gets nuclear weapons. Even if you are planning for this world to end, or the Rapture, or the seventh Seal, there are several billion people who aren't, and we have to share the planet.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 18 by Hamsaka]

For me and many other skeptics, our curiosity is aimed at the Christians. We don't believe their god exists. In order to understand the Christians, it only follows that we'll end up learning quite a lot about their leader.

So then you do not believe this curiosity is a quest for the truth , just a need for a better understanding of Christians? Why do you think an atheist would even bother trying to understand Christians? Could it be to change their views, or beliefs ?

Also, many of us were once believing Christians, probably indistinguishable from you, or other theists on this board. Can you imagine if you just stopped believing in God, there is no God, never was, maybe we needed religions to keep us in line, but now -- it's over. There is no God.

No. I could not imagine. This would seem to be a rejection of God , just as much as rejecting the notion of God . I believe this would leave a worry , or a second guessing of your decision in the back of your mind , that you could be wrong in your choice, do you think that you continue stay connected , in a manner as to quell that second guessing of yourself , by challenging the very beliefs you used to believe in?

Then you state that maybe a higher power, or " order" , is needed to " keep you in line ", but you no longer have that moral compass to go by once you decide there is no God. i.e . You are free to sin without consequence , so your morals could possibly slip , as far as acting out in ways that you think are immoral.

Seems we are getting somewhere here.

That's another reason atheists are online talking to Christians. Some of us are angry. Mostly I just want to talk some sense into you. I know how that sounds. But I am very concerned, or else I wouldn't be here, I think that is a shared sentiment

Yes , the anger issue seems to be a recurring reason. Why would you concern yourself with trying to convince others , when others trying to convince you of something you no longer believe, irks you ? I believe you are sincere in your concern from our previous back and forths , but why concern yourself ? I do not believe stopping someone from believing in a higher power , that is considered divine , is useful , also would this not be taking their moral compass away , the one you say could be lost without religion to guide you ? High emphasis on "could ", as I do not believe atheism equates to immortality.

I believe that second guessing in the back of the mind of atheists , that is kept well down , is a motivating factor of the online traffic of so many atheists. This I believe is the main driver of that curiosity over a need to "set us straight ", or "vent their anger ", which both are acceptable reasons for their numbers are great online, but not the main reason. IMO .

[OnceConvinced]

Then you state that maybe a higher power, or " order" , is needed to " keep you in line ", but you no longer have that moral compass to go by once you decide there is no God. i.e . You are free to sin without consequence , so your morals could possibly slip , as far as acting out in ways that you think are immoral.

This is simply not true. Do you actually have any atheists that are friends? are they all immoral evil people?

I consider myself atheist and my morals are much the same as when I was a Christian. I just beat myself up less about my human nature, but I do not believe I have free reign to do whatever I like. I have laws to obey and I don't even have a desire to break them! There ARE consequences and not just with the law. With other people in my every day life.

I also have a conscience and empathy. These things alone prevent me from doing evil because I know I would not be able to live with myself if I did evil acts. I'm a guy who still feels guilt about bullying a girl at school when I was 5 years old.

So please don't try to tell us we need a God for our moral compass. I know for a fact that's not true. Anyone who needs a God as their moral compass is obviously not a very nice person. Obviously without God and that big stick they would be truly despicable people.

Yes , the anger issue seems to be a recurring reason. Why would you concern yourself with trying to convince others , when others trying to convince you of something you no longer believe, irks you ? I believe you are sincere in your concern from our previous back and forths , but why concern yourself ? I do not believe stopping someone from believing in a higher power , that is considered divine , is useful , also would this not be taking their moral compass away , the one you say could be lost without religion to guide you ? High emphasis on "could ", as I do not believe atheism equates to immortality.

Ancient Paths started a thread here:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... ht=#728602

It may help you understand why people like us debate on websites like this. You will find that anger is only an issue with the minority of Atheists. And no, second guessing rarely comes into it. Believe it or not the majority of atheists are actually caring people. The bible is just straight out wrong about them.