Can you prove the Messiah strictly from the Hebrew bible/OT

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Avraham Ibn Ezra
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Can you prove the Messiah strictly from the Hebrew bible/OT

Post #1

Post by Avraham Ibn Ezra »

The subject was shortened due to the constraints of the subject heading and it's character limit. The full title would have read "can you prove the Messiah has or will come strictly based on the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament? And more..."

The task is simple:

Can you show direct, clear, and irrefutable examples strictly from the Hebrew bible/OT that the Messiah has or will come and that the Messiah will do specific things? If you can do this please provide examples and let's discuss and debate them.

Please bring one point at a time so that we can examine each carefully and discuss more thoroughly. Many people like to bring 500 examples at once and distort the whole process of discussion and debate.


Avraham Ibn Ezra
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Avraham Ibn Ezra
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Re: Can you prove the Messiah strictly from the Hebrew bible

Post #21

Post by Avraham Ibn Ezra »

YahDough wrote:
It's not a presumption. Its an understanding.
Ok, lets say for a second that it isn't a presumption. Can you demonstrate your understanding in the Hebrew bible/OT using clear references that outline your understanding without eisegeting the understanding of the NT into the Hebrew Bible/OT?

YahDough wrote:No. I said I believe all those texts I presented refer to the Messiah Jesus..

OK, please show me where in those texts it clearly, without ambiguity,references Jesus in any fashion.
YahDough wrote:I already answered that. Are you familiar with the NT teachings about the Holy Spirit?
OK, So how do you know that is correct? be mindful of the circular argument you are about to engage in.
YahDough wrote: All of my conclusions are based on the knowledge I have that Christ the Messiah.
And, How do you know that is correct? Can you demonstrate the methods you are using to arrive at that conclusion and provide evidence to support it?
YahDough wrote:Through confidence in the Son of God, and Holy Spirit teaching.
How do you know they got it right?
The Holy Ghost Spirit, who is lives in believers bears witness to the truth.
That didn't answer the question in fact you just restated the premise. that's called circular reasoning.
YahDough wrote:Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost Spirit of truth.
That isn't a standard of proof. That is your ultimate conclusion and presumption toward the text. In essence you formed a type of circular reasoning by approaching the text assuming jesus is the messiah and then in the ultimate scheme of things concluded that jesus is the messiah.
That may be a convoluted and erroneous analysis of me but you have the right conclusion. Jesus is the Messiah.[/quote]

No that's called circular reasoning. When your conclusion is a restatement of your premise.

YahDough wrote:The Holy Ghost (Spirit) that comes in the name of Jesus teaches it and I learn to believe it.
OK, And at what point did you prove anything beyond circular reasoning?

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Post #22

Post by agnosticatheist »

A few thoughts:

Almah vs betulah:

Almah is a young woman, not necessarily a virgin. Betulah means virgin. Christians want to claim that the OT said the messiah would be born to a virgin, but that is not what the OT says...the OT says almah.

Isaiah 53:

This has been covered on here before, but early texts are difficult to infer jesus or the messiah from. Newer texts were, perhaps intentionally, translated in such a way to make it look like isaiah 53 was talking about jesus and maybe the messiah, too. Isaiah 53 may be talking about israel (there are problems with this), or it may be talking about an entity that is not israel, jesus, or the messiah.
If it turns out there are one or more gods, then so be it.

If it turns out there are no gods, then thank reality that no one is going to suffer forever.

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Re: Can you prove the Messiah strictly from the Hebrew bible

Post #23

Post by Robert77 »

[Replying to Avraham Ibn Ezra]

It is impossible.
With that being said it is not impossible for individuals to prove to themselves. if be the will of God.

The problem is we try and cut the snake off by the neck, and two more heads grows in its place. Which is the burden a believer must carry, in that he must show proof without ever having physical evidence. I believe this is what Moses saw when God revealed his hinder parts unto him. Moses actually saw the fingerprint of God, by examining history events and patterns.

So what I am saying is that if God will allow you to see him, then you must search him out for yourself, even to the point that knowing will not produce the evidence to someone else who has not worked for it. We understand people cannot see in darkness, but we fail to realize that we cannot see if the light is to bright as well. Do not turn to the left and turn not unto the right.

I know, I wish I could prove it to others, and show them things I know, but until they have there own passion for Christ, that drives them to Christ. If they are not willing to search, you wont be able to show them. They may need to learn the hard way, and believe me, there is a hard way also; and they both lead to Christ. There is also a road to Hell, but that is for another discussion.

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Re: Can you prove the Messiah strictly from the Hebrew bible

Post #24

Post by KingandPriest »

[Replying to post 1 by Avraham Ibn Ezra]
Avraham Ibn Ezra wrote: The full title would have read "can you prove the Messiah has or will come strictly based on the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament? And more..."

The task is simple:

Can you show direct, clear, and irrefutable examples strictly from the Hebrew bible/OT that the Messiah has or will come and that the Messiah will do specific things? If you can do this please provide examples and let's discuss and debate them.

Please bring one point at a time so that we can examine each carefully and discuss more thoroughly. Many people like to bring 500 examples at once and distort the whole process of discussion and debate.
Unlike some others, I will follow the parameters of the question. 1 point at a time, strictly from old testament that describes a future messianic figure.

Lets look at Daniel 9:24-26 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
24 Shivi’im heptads is decreed upon thy people and upon thy Ir Kodesh (Holy City), to restrain the peysha (transgression), and to make an end of chattat (sin), and to make kapporah for avon, and to bring in Tzedek Olamim (Everlasting Righteousness), and to seal up the chazon and navi, and to anoint the Kodesh HaKodashim.
25 Have da’as, therefore, and get seichel, that from the going forth of the decree to restore and to rebuild Yerushalayim unto Moshiach Nagid shall be shivah heptads, and threescore and two heptads; the rechov shall be built again, and the charutz, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two heptads, yikaret (will be cut off) Moshiach [Yeshayah 53:8], but not for himself [Yeshayah 53:4-6,8]; and the troops of the coming nagid shall destroy the Ir and the Kodesh (Beis Hamikdash, i.e., 70.C.E.); and the end thereof shall come with a flood, and unto the end there shall be war. Desolations are determined.
for non Jews, Daniel 9:24-26 (NIV)
24 “Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
26 After the sixty-two weeks, the Anointed One will be cut off (put to death) and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
It is accepted that the revelation given to Daniel is about a future time which concerns the Jewish people. Without going into too much detail, it is accepted by all rabbinical scholars that the term weeks, or sevens as some translate it refers to a “week of years� or seven year period. See ... bbi-baruch. It is this same understanding that has allowed the Jewish people to track a jubilee year as a period of seven sevens (7X7) or 49 years. In the above link, Rabbi Baruch writes
This prophecy begins with the word "weeks". The interpretation of this word is, indeed, week; but not a week of seven days, rather a week of seven years. This means that the expression "70 weeks" is speaking about a time period of 490 years. The reader needs to understand that nowhere in this prophecy does it state that these are 490 consecutive years.
So in verse 24, we find a prophecy about a specific time period, 490 years where the Jewish/Israelite people, the Holy city, sin, and wickedness are to be dealt with. Also in verse 24, by the end of this 490-year period, everlasting righteousness should be available or brought in, vision and prophecy in the form of major prophets like Isaiah, Elijah and Elisha should no longer found, or sealed, and the most Holy Place should be anointed.

In reverse order, to anoint the most Holy Place could mean to anoint the holy of holies in the temple. I argue that the holy of holies is not the most holy place, as this was always a design and a symbol pointing heaven. If you remember, God gave Moses the instructions for the first temple/tabernacle as a model of what was in heaven, see Ex 25:9 and 25:40. So the most holy place which was to be anointed could only be in heaven, where God is. Next, for the last 2000 or so years, no rabbinical authority has accepted the existence of a prophet in the order of Isaiah, Elijah and Elisha. There was debate in the day of Jesus about both Jesus and John the Baptist, but to be safe let’s say neither of these men were prophets. This would mean after the destruction of Jerusalem, in AD70, prophecy and vision are sealed up. The next three, righteousness, wickedness and sin are all related in that to put an end to sin would automatically end wickedness, and bring about righteousness. For the Jewish people to end transgression, this means they are no longer breaking the law (the law of God given by Moses). For them to no longer break that law, a new law, method or covenant, would need to be established, thereby making the “old� law obsolete.

Verse 25 gives us details on when to begin tracking this 490-year period. We know that nearly all of the Israelite people were taken into captivity. This meant rebuilding the temple, walls and city were not practical without sufficient manpower. So it was from the time a decree was given to rebuild the city and its walls, we can begin counting. There were multiple decrees given to rebuild the temple, but decrees given to rebuild the city did not come until much later. We know King Cyrus gave a decree to allow the Israelites to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple in 538/537 BC. We also know the temple was completed around 516/515 BC. The city nor its walls were built in the time of Ezra, as Ezra 10:9-13 tells us that the people were discomforted by meeting in the rain. The city and its walls were not built until the days of Nehemiah. The book of Nehemiah ch2 records the decree given by King Artaxerxes in the year 445/444 BC. Remember the angels said the city would be rebuilt with “streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.� This is exactly what we find in the book of Nehemiah.

Now to the messianic portion of the prophecy. Verse 25 tells us the point at which we can begin counting forward. In summary we are told to count forward seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, or a total of 69 weeks. Simple math yields 69X7=483. So by the end of 483 years the Anointed One should have arrived. Verse 26 gives us details about this Anointed One, whoever it may be. Daniel is told that the Anointed One will be cut off. Although I myself do not speak Hebrew, I do speak more than one language, and I know how difficult it can be to translate expressions from one culture to another, or one language to another. This expression of cut off is not one of those expressions. Asking any person who speaks Hebrew and English and they would equate the expression cut off, to the one we use today when someone dies young and we say their life was “cut short�. Now the crucifixion of Jesus is understood to have taken place during the reign of Pontius Pilate.
The baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus.

It is known that Pilate would have ruled in Jerusalem from AD 26-36. Most Christians initially held that Jesus died in AD 33, but a correction to the calculation used to separate BC and AD shows Jesus could have been born as early as 6BC or as late as AD 6. (This is one of the major arguments for using Before Common Era, BCE, and Common Era, CE, date terminology). Going back to Nehemiah, if we add 483 years plus the year of the decree of Artaxerxes, 445/444 BC, we arrive at 445/444 BC + 483 = AD 38/39. Now this doesn’t fit on the basis of a 365 ¼ day per year count, but we know “The Jewish calendar is based on three astronomical phenomena: the rotation of the Earth about its axis (a day); the revolution of the moon about the Earth (a month); and the revolution of the Earth about the sun (a year). These three phenomena are independent of each other, so there is no direct correlation between them. On average, the moon revolves around the Earth in about 29½ days. The Earth revolves around the sun in about 365¼ days, that is, about 12.4 lunar months.� See

Other prophecies found in Daniel appear to use a 30-day cycle, but we know the Jewish calendar has a leap year 7 times in every 19 years. Each leap year consists of an additional month of 30 days. With this level of detail, it is difficult to tell which type of year the angel was referring to. I will not, like some have done, alter the years to make it fit. I will only say, we do not know which type of year the angel was referring to. What we do know is that the angel said, at the end of this period of years, the Anointed One’s life would be cut off, and the people of the ruler will come and destroy the city and the sanctuary. Daniel 9:26 says that after the anointed one is cut off, the city will be destroyed by the same government or rulers who killed the anointed one. The siege and destruction of Jerusalem as well as the temple is well documented to have taken place in AD 70 which would have been well after the death of Jesus.

Now Jesus claims to put an end sin, by dying as a substitute once and for all. Jesus claims to put an end to wickedness by defeating death, hell and the grave. Through Jesus, the writer of Hebrews describes how Jesus came to offer a better or new covenant which would make the old covenant obsolete (Hebrews ch8). Jesus is described as going to heaven to offer his blood and anoint the most holy place (same reason he didn’t allow Mary to touch him after resurrection, John 20:17, as high-priest not allowed to be touched when they go to offer sacrifice on day of atonement). Vision and prophecy as previously experienced were sealed up, and now instead of being limited to special prophets, anyone with God’s Holy Spirit inside of them can see a vision or prophesy as well as other spiritual gifts. After all, even in the old testament it is recorded over and over, “The spirit of the Lord came upon� before a person prophesied or had a vision. Now the Holy Spirit doesn’t just visit or come upon, but takes up residence inside you through faith.

Is it just a coincidence that a messianic figure arose at the time frame in history an angel told Daniel? Furthermore, is it a coincidence that an “anointed one� would die at an early age and then holy city Jerusalem would be destroyed shortly thereafter? Is it a coincidence, that the “anointed one� would describe himself as being the one who was able to forgive sin, and also end all sin, at just as prophesied? If the people of his day believed Jesus was the messiah, and were trying to make Jesus king by force, (which is why the Romans are believed to have executed him) wouldn’t this prove that the Jewish people believed a messiah was due to show up in their generation. This would be like someone saying back in 1525 an angel visited them and told them that the land mass where America resides would be a great nation, and that 483 years later it would have its first minority president. Since the prophecy didn’t include the term black president or the name Obama, does it make it any less accurate. The same is true of the Messiah Jesus Christ as prophesied in Daniel 9:24-26.

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Post #25

Post by Freethinker43 »

No, I can't prove Jesus' Messiahship strictly from the Old Testament prophecies because a lot of tweaking went on in the New Testament to give that claim a supposed base from the OT. Jesus as Christ can only be shown from a Christian point of view, as the Jewish people have rejected Christian interpretations of their prophecies.

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