Inshallah - God willing

[Wootah]

Let's explore this idea of God willing.

Do you believe nothing happens unless God wills it?

[puddleglum]

Nothing happens unless God wills it to happen or allows it to happen. He has given us the power to make choices and we can choose to do things that are contrary to his will. Yet there is a sense in which even when we choose to do something God has forbidden we are acting within God's will. He uses even our bad choices to bring about his will.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 2 by puddleglum]

Do you think every causal interaction God is overtly giving consent?

I think God has made a universe to exist and it runs on the rules that were created.

[Divine Insight]

Let's explore this idea of God willing.

Do you believe nothing happens unless God wills it?

I think the answer to this question is fairly simple, but possibly needs to be asked in a different way. Because the using the term "will" could be misleading.

One thing that seems to be fairly obvious and straight-forward: If there exists an omnipotent God, then nothing happens that God has not permitted. Would that necessarily be the same thing as "willed"?

Consider the following:

As an engineer you design a pair of dice that when tossed can result in a roll of 2 to 12. Nothing else can be rolled.

Now if these dice are tossed and a 7 comes up, was that the "will" of the engineer?

Well, obviously the engineer included 7 as a possible roll. So in that sense we could say that the engineer "willed" that 7 could come up at least some of the time. But it's not actually the engineer who "wills" a 7 to come up on any given roll.

I think that if there exist an omnipotent God then this is how we should think of life. Nothing that happens wasn't already designed into the possibilities of life. But this doesn't mean that everything that happens was necessarily "willed" by the creator. But certainly the overall possibilities were.

The Eastern Mystics actually have this philosophy very well covered. In fact, they have it covered in such detail that it's quite compelling actually.

Of course in the Eastern Mystical view it's God who experiences everything. Both joy and suffering. No one suffers anymore than God is willing to suffer because God necessarily must suffer precisely as the human suffers, without exception.

This philosophy is actually quite compelling I think, at least as spiritual or mystical philosophies go. Of course it doesn't mean the philosophy is true. But it does make a lot of sense.

The western religions that have man responsible for suffering, and try to free God from any responsibility are actually quite problematic. Of course, this is why they also need to invent things like a "Satan" or demonic character to pin the blame on for things that God doesn't like.

In the Eastern Mystical picture God is all that is required. No evil demon is necessary to explain the apparent suffering in the world. And no one suffers but God anyway.

Western religions clearly have humans, or human souls or spirits capable of suffering on their own without God having to experience their suffering. That's actually quite problematic on numerous levels.

I'm not sure what a pure secular philosophy would have to say about this sort of thing. I never really read about any. Does anyone know of any pure secular philosophies that address this issue of suffering and who or what is actually suffering?

[ttruscott]

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends-- even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Lamentations 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?

This would seem to support HIS sovereign will in all things alright. But while the need for a free will is not mentioned in the bible, it is a logical necessity to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to make our guilt for being a sinner a true guilt though there are whole sects comfortable with the blasphemy that GOD creates evil and evil people.

There is also the trouble with our being enslaved by sin so that we cannot chose good which mitigates against our free will. Usually a believer just chooses one side of sovereignty or free will by a feeling it is right rather than any proof because obviously no compelling proof is ever offered since there are still contentions pro and con each side.

But my theology has room for both: free will pre-earth in Sheol to set our relationship with YHWH and then the sinners who have lost their free will to addiction to sin all live together on earth with lives predetermined to be perfectly in tune with their previous choices (except for the punishments of course), and the sinful elect live lives predetermined to redemption and salvation as per HIS promise of election to them.

[Wootah]

I'm not sure what a pure secular philosophy would have to say about this sort of thing. I never really read about any. Does anyone know of any pure secular philosophies that address this issue of suffering and who or what is actually suffering?

If God wills it someone might reply to you but I hope we stay on topic.

[Divine Insight]

I'm not sure what a pure secular philosophy would have to say about this sort of thing. I never really read about any. Does anyone know of any pure secular philosophies that address this issue of suffering and who or what is actually suffering?

If God wills it someone might reply to you but I hope we stay on topic.

Well suffering is the key issue here right?

After all, if there were no such thing as suffering then no one would be questioning whether God "wills" things or not.

In fact, that's an interesting question.

If there were no suffering in the world at all, would people believe in a God?

Thinking about that question brings up some interesting thoughts. If there were no suffering in the world at all we might actually have good reason to believe that a God might actually exist and that his "will" is that there be no suffering.

Strangely enough the problem of suffering (or the problem of evil which is basically the same thing really) is actually highly problematic for religions.

It's almost like religions are saying, "Look if there were no suffering in the world we would have really good reason to suspect that there might be a God. But since there is suffering in the world we're going to believe in a God anyway and try to pin the blame for suffering onto someone or something other than God."

Very strange when you stop and think about it.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 7 by Divine Insight]

"Strangely enough the problem of suffering (or the problem of evil which is basically the same thing really) is actually highly problematic for religions."

It is and it certainly makes us question relationship between God and man.

Not sure about Eastern Mystical religions where God suffers in everything we do; that would make our sun (our source of earthly life) suffering every time we get a sunburn.

In everything God does He looks toward what is infinite and eternal (which does not run by the same rules as the earthly life).
We may not have all the answers as to why - why does a toddler have to learn hard way how to walk, but we know it works.

[ttruscott]

Replying to post 7 by Divine Insight

"Strangely enough the problem of suffering (or the problem of evil which is basically the same thing really) is actually highly problematic for religions."

It is and it certainly makes us question relationship between God and man.

Not sure about Eastern Mystical religions where God suffers in everything we do; that would make our sun (our source of earthly life) suffering every time we get a sunburn.

At least Christian theology provides a logical reason for the presence of evil in the free will decisions of all sinners to have rebelled against GOD or even to have rejected HIM as GOD thus creating evil in HIS perfect creation,

whereas the Eastern Mystical definitions that the Dharma split itself into billions of separate fake egos to undergo uncountable lifetimes of fake but intense suffering for no apparent reason at all is pretty hard to countenance.

The Bible is clear that the heavenly state is a marriage of the Church with their GOD and since HE is not into rape, that marriage had to be based upon their free will acceptance of HIS proposal. For a will to be truly free it must be able to chose any option within the choice, including the option to create evil by rejecting HIS proposal.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 9 by ttruscott]

One area that is is hard for me to to comprehend is child abuse especially sexual and especially by family members.

The person committing the sin will have opportunity to regret and repent, but the child is forever damaged in some way and it is bound to affect his personality.

We can not all be on the same spiritual level. For some it is much harder than others.