Reincarnation is deception!

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PetriFB
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Reincarnation is deception!

Post #1

Post by PetriFB »

If we start to examine basic views of the New Age movement and the Oriental religions, it is good to start from reincarnation. This doctrine is namely in the background almost in all teaching of the New age movement and it is also the basic belief of the Oriental religions, in other words of Hinduism and Buddhism. About its commonness has been estimated, that about 25 % of people in the western countries believes in it, but in India and other countries of Asia, where is the origin of this doctrine, the percentage is naturally much bigger. There, in other words mainly in India and other countries of Asia has been taught this doctrine already at least for 2000 years, and obviously it was accepted generally about 300 before Christ, not just before it.

When it is a question of reincarnation, it in any case is based on the fact, that our life is believed to be continuous circulation. Its is believed to be continuous circulation, so that each person is born on the earth again and again and again, and gets a new incarnation always according to that, how he has lived in his former life. All that bad, what happens to us today, should only be consequence of the earlier happenings, and that we must now reap it, what we have sown earlier. Only if we experience enlightenment and at the same time are freed from the circulation, in other words we will achieve moksha, so this circulation does not continue eternally. (However in the western view achieving of moksha is not very important. Instead of that, in the western world reincarnation is seen in positive light, in other words mainly as a possibility to develop and to grow spiritually. It hasn't similar negative nuance to generally in east.)

But what can we think about reincarnation; is it really true or not, and is it worth while to believe? We try to search for answer to this matter in this writing.

http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/Reincarnation

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theleos6
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Post #11

Post by theleos6 »

I remember watching 20/20 or another similar reputable show a few years ago, that had a 3 year old who baffled his parents when he saw a plane for the first time and was able to name and describe almost everything about the plane, but said it was different than the one he flew. In a nutshell, when his parents started asking him questions about it, he told them specific names of the plane he flew, the aircraft carrier he flew from, his name during wwii, and the day he died when his plane crashed. When his parents looked into it, it was all true. Granted there are some loonie parents out there and they could have been the type to teach him all of this, but during the interview, they all seemed pretty convincing. Did anyone else see this show? It was about 2 years ago.
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Post #12

Post by HughDP »

theleos6 wrote:I remember watching 20/20 or another similar reputable show a few years ago, that had a 3 year old who baffled his parents when he saw a plane for the first time and was able to name and describe almost everything about the plane, but said it was different than the one he flew. In a nutshell, when his parents started asking him questions about it, he told them specific names of the plane he flew, the aircraft carrier he flew from, his name during wwii, and the day he died when his plane crashed. When his parents looked into it, it was all true. Granted there are some loonie parents out there and they could have been the type to teach him all of this, but during the interview, they all seemed pretty convincing. Did anyone else see this show? It was about 2 years ago.
I've read about similar things before too, but I have yet to be see any of the cases stand up to scientific scrutiny. For many of them, the person conducting the study has only done so some time after the original claims were made, which makes the evidence anecdotal. For others, the children have been part of families/communities with some strong belief in reincarnation, perhaps enough of a belief to plant suggestions. Even the best cases often turn out to be merely 'plausable', which is a long way from 'definite'.

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Post #13

Post by Scarlet Rage »

Religion, I find is one of those areas that cannot be scientifically proven. However, I still do like the theory of reincarnation. My belief is not based on evidence but a world that would likely be better served if reincarnation was true. Since, I feel I have nothing to lose from holding a belief in reincarnation, believing in it is a wise move.

Take for example, a greedy criminal who never gets caught exploiting others his whole life might have to deal with it in the next life. Considering the people he attacked would not be giving out the punishment, it would be just. If people assumed that this type of reincarnation was true, then it would certainly bring in certain and severe punishment for crime. Believing this person would get reincarnated as someone who gets taken advantage of helps me to accept the errors in the criminal justice system or interpersonal justice as we work to fix them. (Errors are things such as not catching criminals, convicting the wrong man, etc.)

Also, the good person who can never get a break and resists temptation gets rewarded for it in the end.

If someone could show how reincarnation is not just or fair, that would probably cause me to doubt my beliefs. Such a standard is rather high at best though considering I do not believe in reincarnation based off evidence but just what is the best option: Reincarnation exists, or it does not.

I don't attempt to speculate what my next life will be or even if I'll have a next one as "me". Nor do I know my past lives at this time. Whatever the mechanisms to it are, I am not attempting to figure that out. That's for my god and goddess to do.

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Post #14

Post by McCulloch »

Scarlet, so long as you accept that your belief in reincarnation is simply wishful thinking, you are welcome to that belief. But your standard of evidence, I find, rather strange. You say, "If someone could show how reincarnation is not just or fair, that would probably cause me to doubt my beliefs." What makes you think that the universe is fair or just? Is something true because it is fair and just? Are unfairness and injustice all lies?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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fonso
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Post #15

Post by fonso »

Scientifically, the question McCulloch posted is impossible to answer, at least for now.

The likely stance that a majority of theists and (I assume) agnostics, will take however, is that the universe is indeed fair and just, if only to give meaning or some sense to their lives.

I would like to believe that this is certainly the case, as this would seem like a more favorable answer to explain the following:

- Why people are born beautiful or ugly, rich or poor (in contrast to the explanation "God is fair and just but he didn't make all of you the same for a reason. He wants you to make the most out of what you have").

- Why people are lucky/unlucky, or put in predicaments they have no control over (i.e. born in an under-developed country where force is the rule of the land, and forced to lead a life of perpetual starvation or oppression).

- Deja Vus. Having a distinct feeling of extreme familiarity or knowledge of a place, person, or unique object. These may of course, be classified as delusions by some.

Although I am only what I would call a half-learned buddhist, I do believe they refer to the karmic phenomenon as "entitlement", a form of destiny which is earned through merit - which is ironically because of free-will. Does this seem like a preposterous circular oddity? Existence is governed by a combination of destiny and free-will, both of which are dependent on one another. The choices you are free to make are such because of pre-destined circumstances. The pre-destined circumstances you are placed in, in turn, are such because of your previous actions. The chicken and egg question comes into mind right now.

This, to me, helps blur what I would feel is right or wrong in some situations. You can choose to do whatever you want, and will simply reap what you sow in an absolute way. The universe, or existence in general (or for others, God) will just hurl the corresponding karmic consequence at you, whether this be favorable, unfavorable, or neither.

In spite of there being no scientific evidence for reincarnation, I choose to accept the possibilty of rebirth of the sentient consciousness, be it in whatever form that may be.

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Post #16

Post by McCulloch »

fonso wrote:Scientifically, the question McCulloch posted is impossible to answer, at least for now.
Agreed!
fonso wrote:The likely stance that a majority of theists and (I assume) agnostics, will take however, is that the universe is indeed fair and just, if only to give meaning or some sense to their lives.
And that is the only reason I can see that they believe it.
fonso wrote:I would like to believe that this is certainly the case,
But as I pointed out, wanting to believe something does not make it true.
fonso wrote: as this would seem like a more favorable answer to explain the following:

- Why people are born beautiful or ugly, rich or poor (in contrast to the explanation "God is fair and just but he didn't make all of you the same for a reason. He wants you to make the most out of what you have").

- Why people are lucky/unlucky, or put in predicaments they have no control over (i.e. born in an under-developed country where force is the rule of the land, and forced to lead a life of perpetual starvation or oppression).

- Deja Vus. Having a distinct feeling of extreme familiarity or knowledge of a place, person, or unique object. These may of course, be classified as delusions by some.
Good examples. I see no evidence that there is a supernatural being or force in control either.
fonso wrote:In spite of there being no scientific evidence for reincarnation, I choose to accept the possibilty of rebirth of the sentient consciousness, be it in whatever form that may be.
Why do you use the qualifier scientific before evidence? Is there other evidence (non-scientific) for reincarnation? Why not just say, "In spite of there being no evidence for reincarnation, I choose to accept the possibility of rebirth of the sentient consciousness..." ?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
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Post #17

Post by fonso »

Mc[i]Culloch wrote:Why do you use the qualifier scientific before[/i] evidence? Is there other evidence (non-scientific) for reincarnation? Why not just say, "In spite of there being no evidence for reincarnation, I choose to accept the possibility of rebirth of the sentient consciousness..." ?
Oddly enough, there are many documented cases detailing the experieces of the Karmapa (see http://www.bodhipath-west.org/glossary.htm) and Sharmapa (a regent of the Karmapa). One of their responsibilities is to find the reincarnation of the other within their lifetime. When Karmapa passes away, it becomes the Sharmapa's responsibility to find the Karmapa's next reincarnation, and likewise, when Sharmapa dies, it becomes the Karmapa's responsibility to find Sharmapa again. It might surprise you to know how long this has been going on and one might probably think that this is simply an outrageous case of mistakened identity or forcing a reality upon another. However, upon reading on the precepts and requirements of positive identification and succession, the subject becomes somewhat fascinating. As I'm not exactly a full-blown buddhist, I can only wish that someone in this forum can explain this in greater detail.

In case you've had the chance to watch Little Buddha starring Keanu Reeves, the movie does a remarkable job of telling the story of a lama whose consciousness was reincarnated into three different children and how his fellow monks determined this.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107426/

This will hardly stand as evidence under Western scrutiny, but in many places in Asia, the phenomenon is accepted, documented, even anticipated when it is time to scrutinize a candidate child who comes of age to ascend to his previously abandoned position.

To many people on this side of the world, this perpetually recurring phenomenon is all the evidence they need to believe in reincarnation. And however we look at the dictionary meaning of evidence, we can't deny them their claim.

Hence, I added the word "scientific", to emphasize determination by a specific method of science, of which there is none yet :)

As for my reasons in choosing to believe in reincarnation, I think it can do people a lot of good. It can serve as a motivation, an explanation for many things, and it can be an effective control-mechanism.

It is not uncommon, say, for people in Thailand to view homosexuals without any social prejudice. Society over there accepts them as people who belonged to the other gender in their previous life, but brought a part of them into the current one. They are accorded the same respect as any heterosexual person would have with no religious stigma. Some parents even encourage their homosexual children to pursue certain acceptable occupations (those world-famous super convincing Thai she-male shows come into mind :D). Society seems more open and practical.

Poking fun at the discussion, there's an interesting theory that it may well have been the case that reincarnation would have been a part of Christianity had it not been because of the Arian Controversy:

http://members.tripod.com/cryskernan/Ar ... oversy.htm

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Post #18

Post by jjg »

It is absurd to argue that Buddhism is about modern physics and Law of the conservation of energy. As far a science goes, Eastern thinking was detrimental to science by avoiding laws that the physical world followed.

They were conceptualist type of thinkers believing that everything was an illusion in the objective and the only truth was in the mind.

Buddhism tried to deal with the problem evil. It was a soteriology like Christianity albeit a negative soteriology. You cannot separate Buddhism from the belief in a soul.

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Post #19

Post by jjg »

The soul is the form of the body the determines the matter to be what it is alive rational soul for humans. In otherwords, the soul contains the body. how could the sould reincarnate into something else? The form of a tree determines the matter to be what it is. A tree.

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Post #20

Post by Wyvern »

jjg wrote:It is absurd to argue that Buddhism is about modern physics and Law of the conservation of energy. As far a science goes, Eastern thinking was detrimental to science by avoiding laws that the physical world followed.

They were conceptualist type of thinkers believing that everything was an illusion in the objective and the only truth was in the mind.

Buddhism tried to deal with the problem evil. It was a soteriology like Christianity albeit a negative soteriology. You cannot separate Buddhism from the belief in a soul.
And yet it was these same conceptual thought processes that allowed buddhism to invent the number zero and the entire arabic numeral system which allowed all the other scientific endeavors to go forward. Simply because you do not agree with the religion doesn't mean you should denigrate its contributions to science.

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