A question about Islam...

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Taff Lafferty
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A question about Islam...

Post #1

Post by Taff Lafferty »

Why does the Quran require the Hadith to explain it?
Taff Lafferty

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Al-Fatihah
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Re: A question about Islam...

Post #21

Post by Al-Fatihah »

[Replying to post 11 by Taff Lafferty]

Response: Actually, it means exactly what was stated, which is the Qur'an does not require the Hadith. Hadith only further expound on it.

So when we see posts like the one directly above saying what was not actually said, we see its just another example of someone like her using a weak interpolation. That's like someone say, "2+2 is 4", and watching someone come along and say 'what is really meant is watch out for that tree".

So watch out for posters like her directly above. She's good at interpolations when she realizes she has no actual logical response.

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marco
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Re: A question about Islam...

Post #22

Post by marco »

Al-Fatihah wrote:

Response: Actually, it means exactly what was stated, which is the Qur'an does not require the Hadith. Hadith only further expound on it.
Would it be right to say that the hadith can give wrong advice, then, when it attempts to expound on Allah's word? Or would one always accept the hadith as expressing truth?

Take this for instance:

Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Sahih Bukhari 4:52:260

That would suggest that those who move away from Islam should be killed. Can this be true?

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Re: A question about Islam...

Post #23

Post by Al-Fatihah »

marco wrote:
Al-Fatihah wrote:

Response: Actually, it means exactly what was stated, which is the Qur'an does not require the Hadith. Hadith only further expound on it.
Would it be right to say that the hadith can give wrong advice, then, when it attempts to expound on Allah's word? Or would one always accept the hadith as expressing truth?

Take this for instance:

Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Sahih Bukhari 4:52:260

That would suggest that those who move away from Islam should be killed. Can this be true?
Response: Not at all. Yes, he was killed when he changed his religion. That does not mean he was killed BECAUSE he changed his religion,

When you read all of the Qur'an and Sunnah within context, you would know that the verse in the Qur'an which states "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) completely eradicates any rationality that the hadiths means to kill someone because they left Islam. Verses 88-93 of chapter 4, particularly 91, prohibits killing anyone, including the hypocrites and apostates unless it is in self-defense from an attack by them. Last, in Bukhari, volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318 show that when a person came to the Muhammad and wanted to leave Islam and asked his permission, Muhammad........did nothing. And when the man walked away, Muhammad.......did nothing. With all of this context, it is clear that when concerning the killing of apostate, it was ordered to do so and done so in response to apostates who conspire to or attack the Muslims.

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Re: A question about Islam...

Post #24

Post by marco »

Al-Fatihah wrote:

Response: Not at all. Yes, he was killed when he changed his religion. That does not mean he was killed BECAUSE he changed his religion,
That is a remarkably good if recondite reply. One would suspect cause and effect but one's suspicions would be wrong, then. How are we to understand what I quoted, namely that burning is an inappropriate punishment for apostasy but killing is still required? I know what the Koran says. I am suggesting there is a difference between Koran and hadith, so should one treat the hadith as subject to error?

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Re: A question about Islam...

Post #25

Post by Al-Fatihah »

marco wrote:
Al-Fatihah wrote:

Response: Not at all. Yes, he was killed when he changed his religion. That does not mean he was killed BECAUSE he changed his religion,
That is a remarkably good if recondite reply. One would suspect cause and effect but one's suspicions would be wrong, then. How are we to understand what I quoted, namely that burning is an inappropriate punishment for apostasy but killing is still required? I know what the Koran says. I am suggesting there is a difference between Koran and hadith, so should one treat the hadith as subject to error?
Response: You understand through context, as I showed you above. Both the Qur'an and hadith are not written in story book form. So you have to read all similar and related text to know the intended meaning.

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Re: A question about Islam...

Post #26

Post by marco »

Al-Fatihah wrote:
Response: You understand through context, as I showed you above. Both the Qur'an and hadith are not written in story book form. So you have to read all similar and related text to know the intended meaning.
And that drives a bulldozer through clarity. Of course the sensible person always relates a text to what comes before and after and that is hardly a matter for any dispute. But when a text says: "Kill apostates" there is no room for taking context into consideration. What you are saying is that we should ignore such an instruction in that it contravenes some other instruction.

When some later koranic statement conflicts with an earlier one then I understand that the later one, the revised one, should be taken. That is another way of overlooking apparent conflict. Devout Christians argue in exactly the same way about their book, readily taking context into consideration when some little problem is encountered.

Justification is always possible if one has the best intentions and a worthwhile brain.
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sawthelight
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Re: A question about Islam...

Post #27

Post by sawthelight »

[Replying to post 26 by marco]

Definitely read "The People vs. Muhammad" by J. K Sheindlin.

Very good description about how Islam is a religion of war, not peace.

There is no such thing as moderate Muslims. Only those who truly believe that from a Muslim perspective do not understand their religion. Like Christians who only are spoon fed Bible verses. They have no idea how deep and twisted their religion is.

So according to the book with source material all apostates are to be killed.

Muhammad suffered from schizophrenia and other illnesses and was the complete opposite of what Muslims boast him to be.

Muhammad even let his followers bath in a sewer full of feces and urine because he said water is pure in any form.

Read the book. It will open your eyes.

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Re: A question about Islam...

Post #28

Post by Al-Fatihah »

marco wrote:

And that drives a bulldozer through clarity. Of course the sensible person always relates a text to what comes before and after and that is hardly a matter for any dispute. But when a text says: "Kill apostates" there is no room for taking context into consideration. What you are saying is that we should ignore such an instruction in that it contravenes some other instruction.

When some later koranic statement conflicts with an earlier one then I understand that the later one, the revised one, should be taken. That is another way of overlooking apparent conflict. Devout Christians argue in exactly the same way about their book, readily taking context into consideration when some little problem is encountered.

Justification is always possible if one has the best intentions and a worthwhile brain.
Go well.
Response: No one denies that it says kill apostates. Yet it is the context that says "WHY' apostates are to be killed and the context clearly proves that the reason why is if an apostate conspires to or attacks Muslims.

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Re: A question about Islam...

Post #29

Post by Al-Fatihah »

sawthelight wrote: [Replying to post 26 by marco]

Definitely read "The People vs. Muhammad" by J. K Sheindlin.

Very good description about how Islam is a religion of war, not peace.

There is no such thing as moderate Muslims. Only those who truly believe that from a Muslim perspective do not understand their religion. Like Christians who only are spoon fed Bible verses. They have no idea how deep and twisted their religion is.

So according to the book with source material all apostates are to be killed.

Muhammad suffered from schizophrenia and other illnesses and was the complete opposite of what Muslims boast him to be.

Muhammad even let his followers bath in a sewer full of feces and urine because he said water is pure in any form.

Read the book. It will open your eyes.
Response: it's a book founded upon nothing factual. So it's a good fictional book.

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sawthelight
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Post #30

Post by sawthelight »

All the facts are referred to the authentic hadiths that show Muhammad telling his followers to bath in sewage water and more.

He engaged in pedophilia with his 6 year old wife Aisha when the man was 51 years old - supported by hadith.

He engaged in cross dressing - supported by hadith.

All apostates are to be killed. No such thing as moderate islam according to hadith.

Much more disturbing facts about Muhammad are revealed in "The People vs. Muhammad" all supported by hadith.

Surely a godly righteous man would not engage in such activity as a prophet of god. Unless that god is fictional or the actual devil which allows such repulsive behavior.

None of the book I mention is a fictional story. The facts are provided in the book. Islam is a religion of pure war wrapped around deception.

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