Deism

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Freethinker43
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Deism

Post #1

Post by Freethinker43 »

I believe in God and I believe that God works through nature, specifically through evolution and the Big Bang Theory. I believe that we serve each other best when we use our God- given reason. I believe that the philosophy of Deism is the most practicable one today. Here's a link for those interested in exploring deistic tenets: http://www.deism.com/index.html.

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William
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Post #71

Post by William »

American Deist wrote:
William wrote:
For example, if a person finds it difficult to accept their situation or find ways of changing it for the better, and they ask GOD to help them with doing so, and this in turn helps them in doing so...
If their previous choices put them in that situation, then no, God won't intervene because it would violate their previous free will choices.
But that implies that they should be born knowing exactly how they should use their free will and that GOD is immovable, unsympathetic and lacking in empathy.

But let me ask you this then.

Q: What kind of individual would you need to be in order for GOD to intervene?

and

Q: What is doing the intervening in situations where the individual does feel/know that GOD does indeed help them even that they made mistakes and found it difficult to get out of their predicament even that their free will had something to do with them being in that position anyway?

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American Deist
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Post #72

Post by American Deist »

William wrote:
But that implies that they should be born knowing exactly how they should use their free will and that GOD is immovable, unsympathetic and lacking in empathy.
Nah. It just means that God is the champion when it comes to courage of convictions. "I give you free will and will not intervene under any circumstances. I am saddened by some events, but such is life and the freedom of choice."
William wrote:But let me ask you this then.

Q: What kind of individual would you need to be in order for GOD to intervene?
I don't know, nor do I care. I believe in free will and non intervention so...
William wrote:Q: What is doing the intervening in situations where the individual does feel/know that GOD does indeed help them...
Coincidence. Had they not prayed to God, the outcome would most likely be the same. However, believers like the idea of a "Big Sky Daddy" and when a prayer is "answered" they give credit to God for answering it. When a prayer is not answered, they wave it off with statements like:

"God works in mysterious ways."
"We can't know the mind of God."
"We don't see God's big plan."
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Post #73

Post by William »

[Replying to post 72 by American Deist]

So the prayer is answered as far as the individual is concerned but its just coincidence because it is not the way your particular idea of GOD does things?

Q: What if the person doesn't think of GOD as "Big Sky Daddy" or in the way you think of GOD?

Some think that there is no need for any GOD in order to chose goodness and that those who do so, are weak or somehow less/inferior for what they see as some kind of crutch.

Q: What are you thoughts on this, related to your own understanding of what GOD is?

Q: Do you think that your idea of GOD is the correct one individuals should believe in?

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Post #74

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to American Deist]

Yes, I agree we have free will. And no, I certainly don't hold with predestination.

I do believe, however, that God enjoys emotional states and empathizes with us. Otherwise God would be indifferent, the complete and total negation of our humanity. Plus, we would have something God does not, namely sensitivity to others. Viewing God as transcendent should not be an excuse to view God as less than a human being.

As I explained in my previous post, the evil of evils that I am talking about is the fact the past fades. We are helpless against this meaninglessness. Our only hope is in God, who preserves and enjoys our experiences forever.

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Post #75

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 70 by American Deist]

I understand your POV. However, I take a different approach. I believe God is continually "intervening," that there is a continual dialogue going on between ourselves an God, though largely at the subconscious level. Each moment of experience, each momentary self that we are, must begin with an initial aim from God, since God is the sole source of all creativity. But God does not coerce us. God lures us. This initial aim of God is never negligible. However, it is up to us, in a time of self-formation, to decide how far and in what way we will carry it out.

I don't think God gave us free will just because God thought it was a great idea. I view God as the Cosmic Artist. God's goal is to achieve such beauty as is possible under the circumstances. Now, beauty demands complexity, and complexity means freedom, thing could be some other way, things could be misused. Hence, changes for evil always overlap with possibilities for god, greater beauty. It would be impossible to play a wrong note if the piano had only one note. But with 88 keys, there is greater possibility for great beauty and also the possibility for missing notes, creating racket, etc. A wholly safe world would be a world in which there is nothing but monotony. You couldn't even have a rubber knife or build a simple fire. But God is interested in beauty and the great risk taker.

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Post #76

Post by American Deist »

hoghead1 wrote: Viewing God as transcendent should not be an excuse to view God as less than a human being.
That is where we differ in our view of God. I firmly believe in life elsewhere in the universe, just given the unfathomable size of it. I do not view God as humanesque in any way. Nor am I saying that God is some green alien with tentacles.

If anything, I imagine God would be some type of transcendent, incorporeal, intelligent energy force. I can't prove it, but neither can it be disproven.
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Post #77

Post by American Deist »

William wrote: So the prayer is answered as far as the individual is concerned but its just coincidence because it is not the way your particular idea of GOD does things?
If the belief that God answered their prayer (even though it was only coincidence) gives them a warm and fuzzy feeling, more power to them. I do not believe in divine intervention or miracles because of free will, plain and simple.
William wrote:Q: What if the person doesn't think of GOD as "Big Sky Daddy" or in the way you think of GOD?
Their choice. I know plenty of non religious people that are moral. My view on God/religion is not about morality. It is about the creation of the universe via the Big Bang and deistic evolution. The only time I mention morality is IF there is an afterlife, then my belief is that living a moral life is the entry fee. I choose to live as a moral man, not because I am afraid of some eternal torture chamber, but because I'd rather help others than hurt them.
William wrote:Q: Do you think that your idea of GOD is the correct one individuals should believe in?
I believe my idea of God is correct for me. Everyone has to undertake their own spiritual journey and arrive at their destination.
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Deism explains nothing significant re GOD.

Post #78

Post by William »

[Replying to American Deist]
If the belief that God answered their prayer (even though it was only coincidence) gives them a warm and fuzzy feeling, more power to them. I do not believe in divine intervention or miracles because of free will, plain and simple.

I think that deism fits with my own theory and that the GOD it describes (from what you have said) is what I refer to as First Source, which I breifly write about in my thread in the Members Notes forum. {LINK}

However, I do not see LIFE as something which can be, without FS being the consciousness [active ingredient] within the life forms, and that this is achieved through a specific creative process.

In this way, FS is intimately involved with all aspects of ITs creation, because IT is the one and only source of consciousness.
First Source represents the overarching consciousness of all things and unifies all states of being into One Being.

This then is the connection. The individual human (or some green alien with tentacles, etc) is connected with FS whether they know it or not, and when they know it, they understand this as something which is responsive without the requirement of prayers of supplication. It is the core expression of the individual recognizing that which unifies FS with the individual which allows for the contact and mutual communion to occur in a meaningful way. Not necessarily as some 'warm and fuzzy feeling' either. :)

First Source has many 'lower faces'. These are entities in various forms, which would include every life-bearing planet, as the collective representation of the life forms related to the planet.
Some life bearing palnets have just started out, some (like our own) are well involved and others have moved on.
These faces are often thought to be GOD Itself, but GODs are only a dimensional aspect of First Source and there are many faces of GOD. They are more like 'Gods in the making' and do not always accurately represent FS, depending on their progress within the individual experience of their evolution and choices in free will combined.

In this way, First Source is simultaneously sovereign and ubiquitous, and therefore unique. A deist thinks of GOD as incomprehensible.
First Source is indeed incomprehensible, except through the tone-vibration of equality encoded within all life. This is difficult for the individual to access because of what can be referred to as the Genetic Mind.

The GM includes the data of experience of every critter on the planet which affects the Entity of the planet in a similar was as data we as individuals receive shapes our sense of self identification.

Most of us think of our selves as being the human form. We relate to being the form rather than the consciousness within form and not only do we need to adjust the way we think of ourselves (and subsequently how we then interpret the data of experience and express that back into the external world) but we need to understand that we are (at the very least) aspects of First Source, having a human experience.

Between us and First Source are the many faces of GOD and we too represent those 'many faces of GOD - but the Planet Entity is the 'local mind' in which our combined data of experience is processed and in that, this is what I understand as being the Genetic Mind of our species and our combined belief systems/self identification and subsequent behavior effects the ability of the Planet Entity to shape its aspects according to the tone vibration of equality with First Source, in relation to the Planet Entities creations on/in the form/environment of the planet.

This tone vibration of equality is stored at the Entity level of the human instrument, which means that we are - as humans, not just individuals disconnected from one another and from the Planet Entity. The connection always exists, but is not intimate to the point where the individual knows of the connection enough to trigger the awareness to the degree necessary to access the data in any meaningful way to the individual and make that connection viable, potent and relevant, through intention and support.

This means that the individual must interact with the core expression of the Planet Entity and in doing so, assist the Entity in changing the Genetic Mind and this requires more than one individual to achieve. It requires a significant number of individuals to achieve the preferable changes within the Genetic Mind and help make this accessible/available to all.

The above is as such, a metaphor for a particular process and one which is actually going on in relation to the experience of collective human evolution.

In as much as this is the case, it is not generally noticeable presently as we are distracted by politics, religion, culture, scientific discovery and all other activities which seek to (or are used to) actively keep human beings in a state of separateness and conflict.

Deism of itself (as a position), does not appear to be able to support any collective initiative which could offer humanity a way through its present circumstance, primarily because its idea of GOD is too distant and aloof, and for that - supports separatism - primarily between GOD and human (and green aliens with tentacles, etc)


William wrote:
Q: What if the person doesn't think of GOD as "Big Sky Daddy" or in the way you think of GOD?

Their choice. I know plenty of non religious people that are moral. My view on God/religion is not about morality. It is about the creation of the universe via the Big Bang and deistic evolution. The only time I mention morality is IF there is an afterlife, then my belief is that living a moral life is the entry fee. I choose to live as a moral man, not because I am afraid of some eternal torture chamber, but because I'd rather help others than hurt them.
Because all consciousness in all form is of First Source Consciousness, and First Source has always existed and always will exist, the experience of an individual is also something which has always existed

[As FS and as whatever other experiences the individual has - including ones which allow the individual to experience being all human experience perpetually and simultaneously - collectively the data of those experiences are still something an individual entity can have and even identify with as being. 'Individuals' can mean human beings as well as planetary entities Galactic entities, universal entities, and First Source]

When an individual human being leaves their form upon the death of that form, they then go to the Genetic Mind of the Planet Entity.

The experience they then have, in most cases, will reflect their belief systems. In the case where the individual believed that death is the end of them, the experience will reflect their reactions based on the new knowledge...they have not ended and they are still experiencing.

In all cases, how the individual lived their life (what motivated them etc) has a bearing on what they will experience in the next phase (afterlife) within the Genetic Mind of the Planet Entity.

'Eternal torture chambers' can indeed be experienced by the individual if the individual believes that these exist and that they deserve to be there.
Whether they actually deserve to be there is besides the point. It is their beliefs which will determine the outcome in that regard.

For example, someone who believed that they would cease to exist and subsequently find themselves still to be existing after they have died, might then think "damn! The Christians were right!" and this might lead directly to the thought that they are in trouble with GOD and will now have to suffer the consequences and go to hell...

The Genetic Mind works with individual consciousness and subsequent belief systems by instantly manifesting those beliefs into experiences of reality/real experiences/experienced as being real by the one experiencing them. The individual has no idea that they are creating the experience for themselves.

(From the perspective of First Source reality, these individual experiences within the GM are not considered anymore real than are simulations)

The Genetic Mind is not anything more than a place to store the individual consciousnesses and their accompanying beliefs while the individual is afforded the opportunity to evolve from that, into First Source Reality, which is outside the direct influence of any planetary Entities Genetic Mind.

This is also relevant to those who believe - for example, that GOD is enthroned upon some central platform as an object of worship in some heavenly realm. They will experience what they have chosen to make an idol of in regard to their belief systems, and it is the belief systems themselves which determine what imagery unfolds for the individual accordingly.

(The problem with both heaven and hell beliefs is that they are the least likely ones to afford the opportunity for the individual to come out of and experience Source reality.)

Within the Genetic Mind of the species collective, is a place where the connection to First Source Reality is active but this remains undiscovered by those who's belief systems effective hide this connection, to this reality, from their awareness.

The Genetic Mind is not a static environment, although for those experiencing it through their belief systems, it can and does appear to be the case. But it is not, and it is changing and is not only subject to influencing changes from those alive on the planet, but also from those who have since departed and now reside within the GM.

At the heart of the GM, the Planet Entity is the central power, but is not to be mistaken as GOD/First Source, because this is not the case. It is however, the being which can act as the gateway to First Source Reality or for that matter the closed gate, depending on how the individual chooses to react to it. The Genetic Mind of the Entity effective assists in determining what the individual experiences in the next phase, not because the Entity determines this, but because the individual does, and the Genetic Mind obliges the individuals beliefs, like a canvas and paints assist the artist.

The individual is GOD of their own creation and experience within the GM.

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American Deist
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Re: Deism explains nothing significant re GOD.

Post #79

Post by American Deist »

William wrote: Deism of itself (as a position), does not appear to be able to support any collective initiative which could offer humanity a way through its present circumstance, primarily because its idea of GOD is too distant and aloof, and for that - supports separatism - primarily between GOD and human (and green aliens with tentacles, etc)
Actually, deism would offer humanity a peaceful means to an end for a great many atrocities, that are carried out in the name of God or religion. Those who are religious and believe could remain so, but without the need in dictatorial theocracies, radical extremists, fear mongering or guilt trips.
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Post #80

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 76 by American Deist]

Yes, but see, if God has no body, then I have something God doesn't, hasn't experienced, and therefore I transcend God.

Also when you call God "intelligent," you, too, are anthropomorphizing God. If human attributes cannot be ascribed to God, then forget "intelligence," as that as a very human attribute.

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