Al-Taqiyya

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

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sawthelight
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Al-Taqiyya

Post #1

Post by sawthelight »

How does a religion that spreads a message of supposed truth allow itself to use lies?

Why would allah allow lying if his words and religion are indeed truthful? This is a contradiction as well as self-diminishing to a supposed truthful god.
Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment (Quran 16:106)
So basically here any muslim can lie to save themselves from death for being a muslim. So allah will let his own people disown him verbally as a lie to allow his muslims to save their own skin because the religion is filled with strength in being true? or being in deceitful?

What is troubling is there are loads of other taqiyya verses littered throughout the quran.

If islam really is a religion that is true, then there is nothing to fear but allah. For allah would hold judgement for everyone regardless if they are Ghengas Khan (who supposedly muslims trembled in fear of) or Hitler. Why would allah allow his muslims to fear other men if allah's religion is indeed the true and powerful religion? Is it a strength of character to lie or rather speak the truth? Is it better to be brave or to be a coward? Is it really considered brave to have the guts to lie so you can cling unto your life? Is that really commendable? How could the coward be venerated in allah's eyes when allah speaks the supposed truth but his follower doesn't? How do these two match in value and belief system? Can any muslim say that it does?

It even seems to me in the verse above, allah is in fact telling his followers to fear mortal beings along side allah. So therefore they should lie to keep their lives because they must fear other mortals who will take their lives.

However, this suddenly goes against quran 3:175:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…"
Here we have a contradiction. Here, muslims should only fear god and not other mortals. But lying is an indication of being fearful for your life in the hands of another mortal rather than being brave and true to allah's cause.

And the fact is the liar cannot be the true believer because he fears other men rather than allah alone. However, the two verses contradict each other anyways so it also seems allah is not truthful.

Any corrections?

Al-Fatihah
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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #41

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:
Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: I said it can be taken in general according to context. The context does no refer to anything general but specifically refers to defeating the enemy. Therefore, it is conditional. Not general. Debunked. Try again.
You just said it can be taken generally or conditionally:
Al-Fatihah wrote: Rather, it says fear Allah only, which can refer to all things in general or based on condition. (POST 34)
That means I can choose either or. Now you say it has to be "general in according to context". However, now you contradict yourself by saying before that it "can refer to all things in general." To paraphrase:

It can be taken as general or conditional VS. it can be taken as general in the condition.

I think a 5 year old would know those two statements you make contradict.

But I get it, you want to cover up falsehood. Since you want to switch stances again, okay I'll ask for sake of argument. You say it now should be "taken as general in context." Here's a news flash. I've doing that all along! I used the proper verses, with the proper titles, and stayed within the proper context to make my general point. Do you like that?

Keep trying.

Response responses.

Technically, since your religion is being under attack ideologically, I guess you can lie here too since allah permits the muslims to lie to any attacker (it is optional after-all as you've said). So I guess I don't need to believe your explanations anymore as they themselves are incoherent and contradicts themselves as you have demonstrated. And they are probably filled with lies as it seems evident.
Response: I said it can be taken generally or conditionally depending on context. The text before it mentions defeating the enemy. Therefore, it is conditional in to fear Allah only in order to defeat the enemy. Debunked as usual. Try again.

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sawthelight
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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #42

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: I said it can be taken generally or conditionally depending on context. The text before it mentions defeating the enemy. Therefore, it is conditional in to fear Allah only in order to defeat the enemy. Debunked as usual. Try again.
If it is conditional to fear only allah to defeat an enemy, what is the condition? What are you trying to get at? Please clarify this for me. Your argument seems very vague. One liners don't seem to make much sense either. It seems you have no arguments of substance so you put in little to no effort to make your points.

How does this show when taqiyya is permissible to your supposed condition?

You constantly provide one liners like they are omnipotent. Are you god or something?

It seems very slothful to continually add one liners that make no sense.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #43

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:
If it is conditional to fear only allah to defeat an enemy, what is the condition? What are you trying to get at? Please clarify this for me. Your argument seems very vague. One liners don't seem to make much sense either. You should put in a little more effort to make your points. No one can read your mind.

How does this show when taqiyya is permissible to your supposed condition?
Response: The condition is to defeat the enemy, as proven by the context as explained to you repeatedly. Your inability to comprehend is not my concern.

 A contradiction is two statements that oppose each other. Therefore a contradictory statement would say: 

A. You are not allowed to fear anyone but Allah. 
B. It is okay to show fear to your enemy 

That is an example of a contradiction because the first statement "forbids" the latter. Hence the words, "not allowed". 
Therefore, the Qur'an does not contradict because the words "not allowed" or anything synonymous to it is not mentioned. 

Rather, it says fear Allah only, which can refer to all things in general or based on condition. To know so you must refer to the context and the context shows that the verse before it refers defeating the enemy. Therefore, the verse is conditional and says to fear Allah only in order to defeat the enemy. Since it is conditional, there is no contradiction. That is call an exception. 

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #44

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: The condition is to defeat the enemy, as proven by the context as explained to you repeatedly. Your inability to comprehend is not my concern.

 A contradiction is two statements that oppose each other. Therefore a contradictory statement would say: 

A. You are not allowed to fear anyone but Allah. 
B. It is okay to show fear to your enemy 

That is an example of a contradiction because the first statement "forbids" the latter. Hence the words, "not allowed". 
Therefore, the Qur'an does not contradict because the words "not allowed" or anything synonymous to it is not mentioned. 
I don't think you actually read your own book. It says in clear text from your god to not fear others. That, in other terms is "not allowed" or is synonymous with "not allowed" to fear other mortals according to your faith in allah if you are a true believer:
That is only Satan who frightens [you] of his supporters. So fear them not, but fear Me, if you are [indeed] believers. (surah 3:175)
This is like the 8th time I have shown you this verse and this is like the 4th time you have argued the same point.

It seems you don't know how to read your own book. Perhaps because you don't speak arabc? Or perhaps you don't understand English. I don't know. I guess your lack of ability to comprehend is not my problem.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #45

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote: I don't think you actually read your own book. It says in clear text from your god to not fear others. That, in other terms is "not allowed" or is synonymous with "not allowed" to fear other mortals according to your faith in allah if you are a true believer:
That is only Satan who frightens [you] of his supporters. So fear them not, but fear Me, if you are [indeed] believers. (surah 3:175)
This is like the 8th time I have shown you this verse and this is like the 4th time you have argued the same point.

It seems you don't know how to read your own book. Perhaps because you don't speak arabc? Or perhaps you don't understand English. I don't know. I guess your lack of ability to comprehend is not my problem.

Response: And if you present it 50 more times, I'm going to present the same argument 50 times until you are capable of refuting it. This is simple basic English. A contradiction is something that "OPPOSES" the other by not allowing the other to apply. You can't quote the words "not allowed" or anything synonymous to it. Therefore, there is no contradiction. Simple basic English.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #46

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote: Response: And if you present it 50 more times, I'm going to present the same argument 50 times until you are capable of refuting it. This is simple basic English. A contradiction is something that "OPPOSES" the other by not allowing the other to apply.
Last time I checked, the word "BUT" means to the contrary, shown in dictionary.com:
1.on the contrary; yet (dictionary.com)
In the next verse allah says not to fear others BUT him!
That is only Satan who frightens [you] of his supporters. So fear them not, but fear Me, if you are [indeed] believers. (surah 3:175)
So your argument fails. The teachings "OPPOSE" as the word "BUT" is used. Both are synonymous. You keep claiming they aren't. Therefore you should not fear other mortals or you go against what is contrary to what your allah teaches.
Al-Fatihah wrote: You can't quote the words "not allowed" or anything synonymous to it. Therefore, there is no contradiction. Simple basic English.
I never made that quote up. I said something along the lines of your not allowed to fear other mortals according to surah 3:175. It's called paraphrasing. Everyone has the right to do that. In fact, you have been paraphrasing your quran as well. So to say I cannot say, 'lying shouldn't be allowed according to surah 3:175' is naive and disingenuous on your part.

Your arguments have no substance at all. Which shows again how convoluted islam is.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #47

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:
Al-Fatihah wrote: Response: And if you present it 50 more times, I'm going to present the same argument 50 times until you are capable of refuting it. This is simple basic English. A contradiction is something that "OPPOSES" the other by not allowing the other to apply.
Last time I checked, the word "BUT" means to the contrary, shown in dictionary.com:
1.on the contrary; yet (dictionary.com)
In the next verse allah says not to fear others BUT him!
That is only Satan who frightens [you] of his supporters. So fear them not, but fear Me, if you are [indeed] believers. (surah 3:175)
So your argument fails. The teachings "OPPOSE" as the word "BUT" is used. Both are synonymous. You keep claiming they aren't. Therefore you should not fear other mortals or you go against what is contrary to what your allah teaches.
Al-Fatihah wrote: You can't quote the words "not allowed" or anything synonymous to it. Therefore, there is no contradiction. Simple basic English.
I never made that quote up. I said something along the lines of your not allowed to fear other mortals according to surah 3:175. It's called paraphrasing. Everyone has the right to do that. In fact, you have been paraphrasing your quran as well. So to say I cannot say, 'lying shouldn't be allowed according to surah 3:175' is naive and disingenuous on your part.

Your arguments have no substance at all. Which shows again how convoluted islam is.
Response: And but also means " EXCEPTION.". Debunked again. The word "so", is also a conjunction word. "SO" fear is therefore linked or conjoined to the previous text.,MAKING IT CONDITIONAL. Furthermore, "to the contrary, still does NOT mean not allowed. So you just proved my point three different ways.

Debunked as usual. Try again.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #48

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: And but also means " EXCEPTION.". Debunked again. The word "so", is also a conjunction word. "SO" fear is therefore linked or conjoined to the previous text.,MAKING IT CONDITIONAL. Furthermore, "to the contrary, still does NOT mean not allowed. So you just proved my point three different ways.

Debunked as usual. Try again.
Yea that proves my point. A conjunction's role is to connect words or phrases. The CONDITION for a conjunction to exist is to have two words connect. I already did that. What are you getting at? This is another weak argument you have made.

Allah is connecting the idea that you should not fear other mortals, BUT only him unless you are an unbeliever.

And along with your weak argument you just provided above here are more from before:

- You say I make a strawman argument for saying surah 3 and 16 are titled 'family' and 'bees.' And then I prove you that my argument wasn't strawman and you ask what is the whole point of me making that point. Then you go on to say I am rambling about. You already forgot what you said about my arguments being strawman when I already wrote the proper titles out. Huh? You okay? That was very weak.
- You say verse 3:175 can be generally or conditionally taken. Then you change your mind to say it is to be taken only generally in the condition. A contradiction. A unwillingness to be accountable for your own words.
- I can say "not allowed" because that is my right to paraphrase. You have shown how naive and fallacious your arguments have been. Even you paraphrase the quran yourself. Am I then supposed to say you cannot say "SO IS A CONJUNCTION?" BECAUSE I SAID SO?

After all this you still have weak fragile arguments. It is now a waste to talk to someone who is blatantly being so disingenuous.

Good luck in life.

Al-Fatihah
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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #49

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:
I don't think you actually read your own book. It says in clear text from your god to not fear others. That, in other terms is "not allowed" or is synonymous with "not allowed" to fear other mortals according to your faith in allah if you are a true believer:
That is only Satan who frightens [you] of his supporters. So fear them not, but fear Me, if you are [indeed] believers. (surah 3:175)
This is like the 8th time I have shown you this verse and this is like the 4th time you have argued the same point.

It seems you don't know how to read your own book. Perhaps because you don't speak arabc? Or perhaps you don't understand English. I don't know. I guess your lack of ability to comprehend is not my problem.
Response: It does not say do not fear others. Your pathetic lie is laughable. Itt says as you quoted "fear Allah only". You are making the argument that "fear Allah only" means "not allowed" to fear others. NO IT DOES NOT. That's sheer idiocy. Words ha be to be synonyms to mean the same. No word in the following phrase " Fear only Allah" is a synonym for "not allowed". So you LOSE.
Now the more you keep saying it you only embarrass yourself more by showing the inability to comprehend simple basic English. So there is no contradiction. Debunked as usual. Try again.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #50

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: It does not say do not fear others. Your pathetic lie is laughable. Itt says as you quoted "fear Allah only". You are making the argument that "fear Allah only" means "not allowed" to fear others. NO IT DOES NOT. That's sheer idiocy. Words ha be to be synonyms to mean the same. No word in the following phrase " Fear only Allah" is a synonym for "not allowed". So you LOSE.
Now the more you keep saying it you only embarrass yourself more by showing the inability to comprehend simple basic English. So there is no contradiction. Debunked as usual. Try again.
Like I said, I am paraphrasing. I too can reciprocate what you're dishing out on me. How about this, IT DOES NOT IN FACT SAY WORD FOR WORD IN quran:
Al-Fatihah wrote:"Therefore, the verse is conditional and says to fear Allah only in order to defeat the enemy"(POST 43)
anywhere in the quran as you put it in post 43. NO WHERE IN UR quran DOES IT SAY THAT! HOW RISIBLE YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE!

Word for word your words do not match ur quran as my words do not match ur quran word for word. That's called paraphrasing! You're obviously paraphrasing your verses as am I. So what, I'm not allowed to paraphrase? You shouldn't either then. But hey you already did so that would be hypocritical of you to say I shouldn't paraphrase. However you have paraphrased so much of the quran already up to this point and claimed that I should not paraphrase that you really have been hypocritical all this time.

Still, it is another weak argument made. In fact, you keep making superficial arguments. Even when you said I was impotent and ran from the truth because of what you said but still I am here debating you. Very superficial insight you brought there.

And yeah you're not allowed to fear others but allah if you are a true believer according to surah 3:175. Or are you allowed to fear others? Hmm?

Answer that. Are you allowed to fear others besides allah?

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