Al-Taqiyya

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

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sawthelight
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Al-Taqiyya

Post #1

Post by sawthelight »

How does a religion that spreads a message of supposed truth allow itself to use lies?

Why would allah allow lying if his words and religion are indeed truthful? This is a contradiction as well as self-diminishing to a supposed truthful god.
Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment (Quran 16:106)
So basically here any muslim can lie to save themselves from death for being a muslim. So allah will let his own people disown him verbally as a lie to allow his muslims to save their own skin because the religion is filled with strength in being true? or being in deceitful?

What is troubling is there are loads of other taqiyya verses littered throughout the quran.

If islam really is a religion that is true, then there is nothing to fear but allah. For allah would hold judgement for everyone regardless if they are Ghengas Khan (who supposedly muslims trembled in fear of) or Hitler. Why would allah allow his muslims to fear other men if allah's religion is indeed the true and powerful religion? Is it a strength of character to lie or rather speak the truth? Is it better to be brave or to be a coward? Is it really considered brave to have the guts to lie so you can cling unto your life? Is that really commendable? How could the coward be venerated in allah's eyes when allah speaks the supposed truth but his follower doesn't? How do these two match in value and belief system? Can any muslim say that it does?

It even seems to me in the verse above, allah is in fact telling his followers to fear mortal beings along side allah. So therefore they should lie to keep their lives because they must fear other mortals who will take their lives.

However, this suddenly goes against quran 3:175:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…"
Here we have a contradiction. Here, muslims should only fear god and not other mortals. But lying is an indication of being fearful for your life in the hands of another mortal rather than being brave and true to allah's cause.

And the fact is the liar cannot be the true believer because he fears other men rather than allah alone. However, the two verses contradict each other anyways so it also seems allah is not truthful.

Any corrections?

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sawthelight
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Post #2

Post by sawthelight »

Why would a religion that says it's the truth allow lies to be used? How can this religion then be considered the truth?

Al-Fatihah
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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #3

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote: How does a religion that spreads a message of supposed truth allow itself to use lies?

Why would allah allow lying if his words and religion are indeed truthful? This is a contradiction as well as self-diminishing to a supposed truthful god.
Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment (Quran 16:106)
So basically here any muslim can lie to save themselves from death for being a muslim. So allah will let his own people disown him verbally as a lie to allow his muslims to save their own skin because the religion is filled with strength in being true? or being in deceitful?

What is troubling is there are loads of other taqiyya verses littered throughout the quran.

If islam really is a religion that is true, then there is nothing to fear but allah. For allah would hold judgement for everyone regardless if they are Ghengas Khan (who supposedly muslims trembled in fear of) or Hitler. Why would allah allow his muslims to fear other men if allah's religion is indeed the true and powerful religion? Is it a strength of character to lie or rather speak the truth? Is it better to be brave or to be a coward? Is it really considered brave to have the guts to lie so you can cling unto your life? Is that really commendable? How could the coward be venerated in allah's eyes when allah speaks the supposed truth but his follower doesn't? How do these two match in value and belief system? Can any muslim say that it does?

It even seems to me in the verse above, allah is in fact telling his followers to fear mortal beings along side allah. So therefore they should lie to keep their lives because they must fear other mortals who will take their lives.

However, this suddenly goes against quran 3:175:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…"
Here we have a contradiction. Here, muslims should only fear god and not other mortals. But lying is an indication of being fearful for your life in the hands of another mortal rather than being brave and true to allah's cause.

And the fact is the liar cannot be the true believer because he fears other men rather than allah alone. However, the two verses contradict each other anyways so it also seems allah is not truthful.

Any corrections?
Response: Taqiyya refers to not being forthright about your beliefs in order to save your own life. It is not just simply in lying about anything or deceiving people for the fun of it. Secondly, a person who is trying to kill you or harm you is clearly a person who is not interested in the truth. Therefore, taqiyya is not a case of spreading a lie since the person is against the truth anyway, nor is the matter of fear of a mortal illogical or bad since it is logical for a person to want to save their own life. Furthermore, Allah gives this permission so clearly it is okay not to be brave in such conditions. So whether you like it or not does not matter. It's not an obligation. So if you were in such a situation and chose to be "brave" and die, then so be it. Go and die.

As for fear Allah only, the verse says to fear Allah. Not fear Allah "only". You copied and pasted a wrong translation from an unknown source. Even if we accept "only", it is said in context of fearing Allah only so you can defeat the enemy that is attacking you, as proven by the verses before it since they are talking about war and addresses them. It does not say fear Allah only and it is not allowed to fear anyone else. The verse is conditional. Not in general. Therefore, there is no contradiction.

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sawthelight
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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #4

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:As for fear Allah only, the verse says to fear Allah. Not fear Allah "only". You copied and pasted a wrong translation from an unknown source.
There are in your widely used Qurans such as Maulana Wahiduddin Khan and Quran.com. How can you deny your own verses that are mainstream?
Al-Fatihah wrote:Even if we accept "only", it is said in context of fearing Allah only so you can defeat the enemy that is attacking you, as proven by the verses before it since they are talking about war and addresses them. It does not say fear Allah only and it is not allowed to fear anyone else. The verse is conditional. Not in general. Therefore, there is no contradiction.
The verse 3:175 comes from Al-'Imran, the Family book. So this chapter is about war as you say, but its also about family too? Does that mean the religion is about being a family about war and not peace then?

Still the verse says to fear not others but allah:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…" Quran 3:175
That is saying to fear only allah unless it's permissible for shirk, to put up others to fear along allah. Even if it is only permissible during war, that would constitute as shirk, a grave sin against allah anyways. Since you say it's okay to fear others for the sake of your own life, it seems to prove that shirk is permissible and to go against allah's teachings is permissible during war. If it's permissible to commit shirk during war, who's to say you cannot commit shirk during any other time? Unless the whole religion is about war.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #5

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

There are in your widely used Qurans such as Maulana Wahiduddin Khan and Quran.com. How can you deny your own verses that are mainstream?
Response: For the same reasons why you deny the mainstream verses that say otherwise.

intheabyss wrote:

Still the verse says to fear not others but allah:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…" Quran 3:175
That is saying to fear only allah unless it's permissible for shirk, to put up others to fear along allah. Even if it is only permissible during war, that would constitute as shirk, a grave sin against allah anyways. Since you say it's okay to fear others for the sake of your own life, it seems to prove that shirk is permissible and to go against allah's teachings is permissible during war. If it's permissible to commit shirk during war, who's to say you cannot commit shirk during any other time? Unless the whole religion is about war.
Response: And the context still shows that the verse is conditional and refers to those who choose fight against and defeat those that attack them, which in such case, they should fear Allah only in order to do so. No mention of shirk anywhere, supported by your own failure to quote "shirk" or anything synonymous to it from the verses. [/quote]

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #6

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:
intheabyss wrote: There are in your widely used Qurans such as Maulana Wahiduddin Khan and Quran.com. How can you deny your own verses that are mainstream?
Response: For the same reasons why you deny the mainstream verses that say otherwise.
What? I did use a mainstream source to make my point. You assert I am denying the mainstream source I provided? How does that make any sense? I just used it. I think you are denying your own book by the way you speak. Please show me other mainstream verses that say otherwise. That would only contradict your book even more. Supposedly you have only 1 version of quran, which in fact you have 7 dialects which means 7 versions. Please provide proof instead of just attacking my argument without evidence. It just shows me I'm right about Taqiyya because you have nothing to counter it with besides attacking my argument without evidence.

Al-Fatihah wrote: Response: And the context still shows that the verse is conditional and refers to those who choose fight against and defeat those that attack them, which in such case, they should fear Allah only in order to do so. No mention of shirk anywhere, supported by your own failure to quote "shirk" or anything synonymous to it from the verses.
Where does it mention of it being of war only? One chapter talks about family and the other about bees. Is it about your family being about war? not peace? Or is it about unleashing bees as a sign of war with your family? Still you don't answer that but say I'm talking out of context. Please answer the questions and show me the correct evidence instead of resorting to empty arguments attacking what I said.
Al-Fatihah wrote: Response: Taqiyya refers to not being forthright about your beliefs in order to save your own life. It is not just simply in lying about anything or deceiving people for the fun of it.
This still shows me you go against quran 3:175 and you do fear someone other than allah in said situation. That is a contradiction. And it can be considered shirk. Giving god status (that belongs only to allah by only fearing him) to the attacker when the god status should be going to allah only if you are a true believer. Said in plain text. I don't see any other way to interpret it without dismissing islam as a man-made religion.
Last edited by sawthelight on Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Al-Fatihah
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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #7

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

What? I did use a mainstream source to make my point. You assert I am denying the mainstream source I provided? How does that make any sense? I just used it. I think you are denying your own book by the way you speak. Please show me other mainstream verses that say otherwise. That would only contradict your book even more. Supposedly you have 1 version, which in fact you have 7 dialects which means 7 versions.
.

Response: And what I used is a mainstream source as well, such as Yusuf Ali, Sahih International, Shakir and more. So you keep refuting yourself by claiming your position is true because it is mainstream when other mainstream sources show otherwise.
Al-Fatihah wrote:
Where does it mention of it being of war only? One chapter talks about family and the other about bees. Is it about your family being about war? not peace? Or is it about unleashing bees as a sign of war with your family? Still you don't answer that but say I'm talking out of context. Please answer the questions and show me the correct evidence instead of resorting to empty arguments attacking what I said.


Still If you can lie to save your own life, how can that not be interpreted as shirk? You might as well be a polytheist if you fear other than allahh. Since allah is so serious all the time.
Response: I never said it refers to war only. I said it refers to defeating an enemy and the proof is that the verse before it refers to war. As for the rest, the discussion at the moment is about taqiyya. So your reference of bees and family is a weak strawman to distract from the fact that your arguments for taqiyya failed. I don't address strawman. Last, shirk doe not mean lying. That's why lying does not mean shirk. Simple.
intheabyss wrote:
This still shows me you go against quran 3:175 and you do fear someone other than allah in said situation. That is a contradiction. And it can be considered shirk. Giving god status (that belongs only to allah by only fearing him) to the attacker when the god status should be going to allah only if you are a true believer. Said in plain text. I don't see any other way to interpret it without dismissing islam as a man-made religion.
Response: It shows no contradiction since the context shows it is conditional. Not in general. For it to be a contradiction, it would have to be a verse that says to fear Allah only in all cases but it does not. The context proves it says to fear Allah only when trying to defeat the enemy. No contradiction.
Last edited by Al-Fatihah on Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #8

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote: Response: And what I used is a mainstream source as well, such as Yusuf Ali, Sahih International, Shakir and more. So you keep refuting yourself by claiming your position is true because it is mainstream when other mainstream sources show otherwise.
Well that answers my question then. You have other mainstream translations that contradict one another. That in indicative to more than 1 supposed version and means your books contradict one another.

Al-Fatihah wrote: Response: I never said it refers to war only. I said it refers to defeating an enemy and the proof is that the verse before it refers to war. As for the rest, the discussion at the moment is about taqiyya. So your reference of bees and family is a weak strawman to distract from the fact that your arguments for taqiyya failed. I don't address strawman. Last, shirk doe not mean lying. That's why lying does not mean shirk. Simple.
How have I failed when I only asked you a question? A question fails? I'm not allowed to ask questions?

Perhaps if I made a statement, 'that your religion of islam is about families of war unleashing bees' could be deemed ignorant. Instead of making that statement I used a question. But to ask a question is already wrong and fails?

This is the tolerance you have for those who ask simple questions? To tell them they fail and are strawman? Perhaps you are avoiding the question with strawman arguments yourself.

Lying could cause you to commit shirk. Not impossible. You give god status to a man that belongs only to allah. You are supposed to fear only god but end of fearing another man. Since only god is supposed to be feared, you are giving a man god like status when you show your fear towards him. Therefore your lie to save your own life commits shirk.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #9

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:
Well that answers my question then. You have other mainstream translations that contradict one another. That in indicative to more than 1 supposed version and means your books contradict one another.
Response: The Qur'an is the Arabic, which is the same. Not the translation, refuting yourself as usual.

Al-Fatihah wrote:
How have I failed when I only asked you a question? A question fails? I'm not allowed to ask questions?

Perhaps if I made a statement, 'that your religion of islam is about families of war unleashing bees' could be deemed ignorant. Instead of making that statement I used a question. But to ask a question is already wrong and fails?

This is the tolerance you have for those who ask simple questions? To tell them they fail and are strawman? Perhaps you are avoiding the question with strawman arguments yourself.

Lying could cause you to commit shirk. Not impossible. You give god status to a man that belongs only to allah. Therefore your lie to save your own life commits shirk.
Response: You made a claim. A question has a question mark at the end. You said: "One chapter talks about family and the other about bees". That is a claim. Not a question. Debunked. Last, if lying causes you to commit shirk, that's your problem. That doesn't mean lying is shirk because you chose to commit shirk.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #10

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote: For it to be a contradiction, it would have to be a verse that says to fear Allah only in all cases but it does not. The context proves it says to fear Allah only when trying to defeat the enemy. No contradiction.
The verse does say fear not them (other humans or entities) but Me (allah). Plain and simple - here, one more time:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…" Quran 3:175
You say it doesn't talk about fearing god only, however that is clearly deviating from your quran. So I am to conclude you are not a true follower and are spreading the wrong message of falsehood.

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