Al-Taqiyya

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sawthelight
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Al-Taqiyya

Post #1

Post by sawthelight »

How does a religion that spreads a message of supposed truth allow itself to use lies?

Why would allah allow lying if his words and religion are indeed truthful? This is a contradiction as well as self-diminishing to a supposed truthful god.
Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment (Quran 16:106)
So basically here any muslim can lie to save themselves from death for being a muslim. So allah will let his own people disown him verbally as a lie to allow his muslims to save their own skin because the religion is filled with strength in being true? or being in deceitful?

What is troubling is there are loads of other taqiyya verses littered throughout the quran.

If islam really is a religion that is true, then there is nothing to fear but allah. For allah would hold judgement for everyone regardless if they are Ghengas Khan (who supposedly muslims trembled in fear of) or Hitler. Why would allah allow his muslims to fear other men if allah's religion is indeed the true and powerful religion? Is it a strength of character to lie or rather speak the truth? Is it better to be brave or to be a coward? Is it really considered brave to have the guts to lie so you can cling unto your life? Is that really commendable? How could the coward be venerated in allah's eyes when allah speaks the supposed truth but his follower doesn't? How do these two match in value and belief system? Can any muslim say that it does?

It even seems to me in the verse above, allah is in fact telling his followers to fear mortal beings along side allah. So therefore they should lie to keep their lives because they must fear other mortals who will take their lives.

However, this suddenly goes against quran 3:175:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…"
Here we have a contradiction. Here, muslims should only fear god and not other mortals. But lying is an indication of being fearful for your life in the hands of another mortal rather than being brave and true to allah's cause.

And the fact is the liar cannot be the true believer because he fears other men rather than allah alone. However, the two verses contradict each other anyways so it also seems allah is not truthful.

Any corrections?

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #21

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: Rather, you should correct yourself and desist from making claims, then asking for clarifications. If you were truly doing so, you would not make any claims. the thread itself is you making a claim in the opening statement about taqiyya and providing an argument to support it. You are making a claim. You need to stop being deceptive and pretending you are not.
Okay sure then. I made a claim about Chapter 3 and 16 being about Family and Bees. Unless that too is not found in your books. Then I asked if the religion is about Families, war, and bees altogether.
Where does it mention of it being of war only? One chapter talks about family and the other about bees. Is it about your family being about war? not peace? Or is it about unleashing bees as a sign of war with your family? (POST 6)
Clearly you misread my post. So please correct yourself otherwise there is no reason to reason with you.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #22

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:
Where does it mention of it being of war only? One chapter talks about family and the other about bees. Is it about your family being about war? not peace? Or is it about unleashing bees as a sign of war with your family? (POST 6)
Clearly you misread my post. So please correct yourself otherwise there is no reason to reason with you.
Response: Clearly you misread my response. I addressed that post in my next response. So correct yourself. Otherwise, you will continue to be exposed and whether you want to continue or not does not matter to me.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #23

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:
intheabyss wrote:
Where does it mention of it being of war only? One chapter talks about family and the other about bees. Is it about your family being about war? not peace? Or is it about unleashing bees as a sign of war with your family? (POST 6)
Clearly you misread my post. So please correct yourself otherwise there is no reason to reason with you.
Response: Clearly you misread my response. I addressed that post in my next response. So correct yourself. Otherwise, you will continue to be exposed and whether you want to continue or not does not matter to me.
Wow I gotta do your work hey? Okay here goes, your response to my post 6:
Al-Fatihah wrote: So your reference of bees and family is a weak strawman to distract from the fact that your arguments for taqiyya failed. I don't address strawman. Last, shirk doe not mean lying. That's why lying does not mean shirk. Simple.
It's not a strawman arguement. The verses I used, quran 3:175 and 16:106, come from chapter 3 and 16 from your book. They are titled, "Al Imran - translation - Family and Al-Nahl - translation Bees. They are in your book. Those are the title of your surahs.

Since you say that it is a strawman argument to claim the titles or not what it says in the quran you have denied your own book. Unless you cannot read arabic. It says in your book. So to call my argument strawman for being correct about your surahs (chapters) is very unfounded on your part and completely ignorant. You dont even know your own book.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #24

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:
Al-Fatihah wrote:
intheabyss wrote:
Where does it mention of it being of war only? One chapter talks about family and the other about bees. Is it about your family being about war? not peace? Or is it about unleashing bees as a sign of war with your family? (POST 6)
Clearly you misread my post. So please correct yourself otherwise there is no reason to reason with you.
Response: Clearly you misread my response. I addressed that post in my next response. So correct yourself. Otherwise, you will continue to be exposed and whether you want to continue or not does not matter to me.
Wow I gotta do your work hey? Okay here goes, your response to my post 6:
Al-Fatihah wrote: So your reference of bees and family is a weak strawman to distract from the fact that your arguments for taqiyya failed. I don't address strawman. Last, shirk doe not mean lying. That's why lying does not mean shirk. Simple.
It's not a strawman arguement. The verses I used, quran 3:175 and 16:106, come from chapter 3 and 16 from your book. They are titled, "Al Imran - translation - Family and Al-Nahl - translation Bees. They are in your book. Those are the title of your surahs.

Since you say that it is a strawman argument to claim the titles or not what it says in the quran you have denied your own book. Unless you cannot read arabic. It says in your book. So to call my argument strawman for being correct about your surahs (chapters) is very unfounded on your part and completely ignorant. You dont even know your own book.
Response: As usual, you sound senseless. The topic is taqiyya. Mentioning the chapters names proves what? You are the one mentioning them. You brought them up. Therefore, it is for you to show what in the world it has to do with your claim about taqiyya. You provided.....nothing. Therefore, it remains a weak strawman. So as usual, you expose and refute yourself. Try again.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #25

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: As usual, you sound senseless. The topic is taqiyya. Mentioning the chapters names proves what? You are the one mentioning them. You brought them up. Therefore, it is for you to show what in the world it has to do with your claim about taqiyya. You provided.....nothing. Therefore, it remains a weak strawman. So as usual, you expose and refute yourself. Try again.

First off, you said it's a strawman argument to make a claim about the surah's being titled as "family" and "bees." My reference, as you put it, of bees and family 'is a weak strawman.' Now you deflect the attention away from your big blunder and say whats the whole point of this debate?

I think we all have the right to set up the foundations for our argument before jumping in without any grounding or context. I was using surah 3 and 16 so I should at least write down the titles of them to clarify my questions, no? Is there something wrong with that?

Did you forget that you said, 'I made a claim about islam being a religion of war?' I told you I used a question. I never made a statement that islam is a religion of war. My only claim was your surahs are titled bees and family. And I asked if they are all related to war to prove your point on why taqiyya is used. I think you lost track of your own argument.

You said with your own words that it is a strawman argument to say the quran has a book titled "family" and "bees." This is another side point here. I suggest you correct yourself on this position to continue forward:
Al-Fatihah wrote: So your reference of bees and family is a weak strawman to distract from the fact that your arguments for taqiyya failed. I don't address strawman. Last, shirk doe not mean lying. That's why lying does not mean shirk. Simple.
I made a claim about surah 3 and 16 about the title it is named by and you said it is a strawman argument to do so. By ignoring the issue you created, are you trying to dismiss all accountability of what you said now? You cannot remember what you said? Look at the last quote. That is you saying in paraphrase that, 'surahs Family and Bees dont exist.' That means you don't acknowledge your surahs in your quran as they are. That means you deny your book as you still try to make fallacious claims about islam. That also could implie you are involving Taqiyya, deception, and misdirection to make your point about islam being truthful. Clearly it is not.

My question was:
Where does it mention of it being of war only? One chapter talks about family and the other about bees. Is it about your family being about war? not peace? Or is it about unleashing bees as a sign of war with your family? (POST 6)
You never answered this question but said, 'I made a statement here that islam is a religion of war' when I only asked if it was. Clearly you cannot answer it but keep calling my arguments strawman and you deliberately avoid the stances you took to keep this conversation going in a whole other direction. I understand. You don't want to answer my question but you prefer to attack my character instead.

So please correct yourself. Stop changing stances from your original arguments. It only shows how much more convoluted your religion is.
Al-Fatihah wrote:
intheabyss wrote:
How have I failed when I only asked you a question? A question fails? I'm not allowed to ask questions?

Perhaps if I made a statement, 'that your religion of islam is about families of war unleashing bees' could be deemed ignorant. Instead of making that statement I used a question. But to ask a question is already wrong and fails?

This is the tolerance you have for those who ask simple questions? To tell them they fail and are strawman? Perhaps you are avoiding the question with strawman arguments yourself.

Lying could cause you to commit shirk. Not impossible. You give god status to a man that belongs only to allah. Therefore your lie to save your own life commits shirk.
Response: You made a claim. A question has a question mark at the end. You said: "One chapter talks about family and the other about bees". That is a claim. Not a question. Debunked. Last, if lying causes you to commit shirk, that's your problem. That doesn't mean lying is shirk because you chose to commit shirk.
Yea I made a claim that about the title of your surahs. If you disagree with that you deny your book. My question was:
Where does it mention of it being of war only? One chapter talks about family and the other about bees. Is it about your family being about war? not peace? Or is it about unleashing bees as a sign of war with your family? (POST 6)
Clearly this question is not making a claim about your religion being about war. Yet you say I made the claim. Go back and read these quotes. Unless you are too slothful to do so. As I am doing all the work here.

And please answer the question. If not, don't bother because it shows afraid of the answer. Attacking my character is not really answering the question, is it?
Last edited by sawthelight on Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #26

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

First off, you said it's a strawman argument to make a claim about the surah's being titled as "family" and "bees." My reference, as you put it, of bees and family 'is a weak strawman.' Now you deflect the attention away from your big blunder and say whats the whole point of this debate?

I think we all have the right to set up the foundations for our argument before jumping in without any grounding or context. I was using surah 3 and 16 so should I at least write down the title of it to clarify my questions, no?

Did you forget that you said, 'I made a claim about islam being a religion of war?' I told you I used a question. I never made a statement that islam is a religion of war. My only claim was your surahs are titled bees and family. And I asked if they are all related to war to prove your point on why taqiyya is used. I think you lost track of your own argument.

You said with your own words that it is a strawman argument to say the quran has a book titled "family" and "bees." This is another side point here. I suggest you correct yourself on this position to continue forward:
Al-Fatihah wrote: So your reference of bees and family is a weak strawman to distract from the fact that your arguments for taqiyya failed. I don't address strawman. Last, shirk doe not mean lying. That's why lying does not mean shirk. Simple.
I made a claim about surah 3 and 16 about the title it is named by and you said it is a strawman argument to do so. By ignoring the issue you created, are you trying to dismiss all accountability of what you said now? You cannot remember what you said? Look at the last quote. That is you saying in paraphrase that, 'surahs Family and Bees dont exist.' That means you don't acknowledge your surahs in your quran as they are. That means you deny your book as you still try to make fallacious claims. Thus that itself implies you are involving Taqiyya, deception and misdirection to make your point about islam being truthful. Clearly it is not.

My question was:
Where does it mention of it being of war only? One chapter talks about family and the other about bees. Is it about your family being about war? not peace? Or is it about unleashing bees as a sign of war with your family? (POST 6)
You never answered this question but said, 'I made a statement here that islam is a religion of war' when I only asked if it was. Clearly you cannot answer it but keep calling my arguments strawman and you deliberately avoid the stances you took to keep this conversation going in a whole other direction. I understand. You don't want to answer my question but you prefer to attack my character instead.

So please correct yourself. Stop changing stances from your original arguments. It only shows how much more convoluted your religion is.
Al-Fatihah wrote:
intheabyss wrote:
How have I failed when I only asked you a question? A question fails? I'm not allowed to ask questions?

Perhaps if I made a statement, 'that your religion of islam is about families of war unleashing bees' could be deemed ignorant. Instead of making that statement I used a question. But to ask a question is already wrong and fails?

This is the tolerance you have for those who ask simple questions? To tell them they fail and are strawman? Perhaps you are avoiding the question with strawman arguments yourself.

Lying could cause you to commit shirk. Not impossible. You give god status to a man that belongs only to allah. Therefore your lie to save your own life commits shirk.
Response: You made a claim. A question has a question mark at the end. You said: "One chapter talks about family and the other about bees". That is a claim. Not a question. Debunked. Last, if lying causes you to commit shirk, that's your problem. That doesn't mean lying is shirk because you chose to commit shirk.
Yea I made a claim that about the title of your surahs. If you disagree with that you deny your book. My question was:
Where does it mention of it being of war only? One chapter talks about family and the other about bees. Is it about your family being about war? not peace? Or is it about unleashing bees as a sign of war with your family? (POST 6)
Clearly this question is not making a claim about your religion being about war. Yet you say I made the claim. Go back and read these quotes. Unless you are too slothful to do so. As I am doing all the work here.

And please answer the question. If not, don't bother because it shows afraid of the answer. Attacking my character is not really answering the question, is it?
Response: And after all of that rambling, the fact still remains that there is no contradiction in the Qur'an of 3:175 since the context (the verses right before it) show that the verse is in reference to defending yourself in an attack. Therefore saying fear Allah only means to fear Allah only in order to defeat someone in an attack. Not to fear Allah only in all general cases.

When you are finish rambling and able to address and refute what I just said, then you continue to make my point that there is no contradiction and my explanation is valid.
Last edited by Al-Fatihah on Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #27

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: And after all of that rambling, the fact still remains that there is no contradiction in the Qur'an of 3:175 since the context the verses right before it) show that the verse is in reference to defending yourself in an attack, therefore saying fear Allah only means to fear Allah only in order to defeat someone in an attack.

When you are finish rambling and address able to refute what I just said, the point remains fact and there is no contradiction.
Please show me your context. The verse 3:175 comes from surah 3, which is titled, Family.

Does this in context mean your family will attack you and therefore you can lie to save your life? Please explain the context.

You keep talking about context but bring none.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #28

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:
Please show me your context. The verse 3:175 comes from surah 3, which is titled, Family.

Does this in context mean your family will attack you and therefore you can lie to save your life? Please explain the context.
Response: You quoted verse 3:175. Therefore, you should also be able to quote the two verses before it.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #29

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: You quoted verse 3:175. Therefore, you should also be able to quote the two verses before it.
So this surah is about family, enemies, and not fearing enemies but only god. So how do you fear only god if you show fear for your life by lying to your enemy? Lying to save your own life means you fear death and the other mortal instead of allah alone.

allah says to fear not the enemy but him only. And quran 16:106 says its okay to lie to live by dismissing god. Surely these two verses contradict. You cannot fear only god and then fear another mortal if allah is truthful.

If god is sufficient for you before the enemy attacks then why lie to save your own life?:
Those to whom hypocrites said, "Indeed, the people have gathered against you, so fear them." But it [merely] increased them in faith, and they said, "Sufficient for us is Allah , and [He is] the best Disposer of affairs." (quran 3:173)
Surely allah is sufficient. No need to fear. No need to lie. But all of a sudden it is okay to lie. Why? Now allah all of a sudden is not sufficient for the believer?
Last edited by sawthelight on Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #30

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

So this surah is about family, enemies, and not fearing enemies. So how do you fear only god if you show fear for your life by lying to your enemy?

allah says to fear not the enemy but him only. And quran 16:106 says its okay to lie to live by dismissing god. Surely these two verses contradict. You cannot fear only god and then fear another mortal if allah is truthful.
Response: You show fear to only Allah by defeating the enemy, as been said to you repeatedly. Therefore, there is clearly no contradiction since the statement I just said to you says to fear Allah only to defeat the enemy. That's an exception. Not a contradiction.

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