Al-Taqiyya

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
sawthelight
Scholar
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:56 pm

Al-Taqiyya

Post #1

Post by sawthelight »

How does a religion that spreads a message of supposed truth allow itself to use lies?

Why would allah allow lying if his words and religion are indeed truthful? This is a contradiction as well as self-diminishing to a supposed truthful god.
Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment (Quran 16:106)
So basically here any muslim can lie to save themselves from death for being a muslim. So allah will let his own people disown him verbally as a lie to allow his muslims to save their own skin because the religion is filled with strength in being true? or being in deceitful?

What is troubling is there are loads of other taqiyya verses littered throughout the quran.

If islam really is a religion that is true, then there is nothing to fear but allah. For allah would hold judgement for everyone regardless if they are Ghengas Khan (who supposedly muslims trembled in fear of) or Hitler. Why would allah allow his muslims to fear other men if allah's religion is indeed the true and powerful religion? Is it a strength of character to lie or rather speak the truth? Is it better to be brave or to be a coward? Is it really considered brave to have the guts to lie so you can cling unto your life? Is that really commendable? How could the coward be venerated in allah's eyes when allah speaks the supposed truth but his follower doesn't? How do these two match in value and belief system? Can any muslim say that it does?

It even seems to me in the verse above, allah is in fact telling his followers to fear mortal beings along side allah. So therefore they should lie to keep their lives because they must fear other mortals who will take their lives.

However, this suddenly goes against quran 3:175:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…"
Here we have a contradiction. Here, muslims should only fear god and not other mortals. But lying is an indication of being fearful for your life in the hands of another mortal rather than being brave and true to allah's cause.

And the fact is the liar cannot be the true believer because he fears other men rather than allah alone. However, the two verses contradict each other anyways so it also seems allah is not truthful.

Any corrections?

User avatar
sawthelight
Scholar
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:56 pm

Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #11

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: The Qur'an is the Arabic, which is the same. Not the translation, refuting yourself as usual.
The Quran has 7 dialects. So 7 versions. Not the same. You refute yourself. Are you saying we shouldn't use translations then? No need to explain to us in english what your book means if thats the case. Keep it arabic if thats what it's all about.

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: You made a claim. A question has a question mark at the end. You said: "One chapter talks about family and the other about bees". That is a claim. Not a question. Debunked. Last, if lying causes you to commit shirk, that's your problem. That doesn't mean lying is shirk because you chose to commit shirk.
I made a claim that is true. The chapter says bees and the other says family. You going to deny that too?

The question I made was if it was all tied in together to mean 'families made for war using bees.' That is different. You see? Mention of war in my question. No mention of war in my statement. You got it wrong.
Last edited by sawthelight on Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Al-Fatihah
Student
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 5:47 am

Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #12

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

The verse does say fear not them (other humans or entities) but Me (allah). Plain and simple - here, one more time:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…" Quran 3:175
You say it doesn't talk about fearing god only, however that is clearly deviating from your quran. So I am to conclude you are not a true follower and are spreading the wrong message of falsehood.
Response: Exactly. It says fear Allah and no one else, in response to the enemy who wants to kill you. Therefore, the context proves that it means to fear Allah only and no one else when trying to kill and defeat the enemy. Thanks for making my point.

User avatar
sawthelight
Scholar
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:56 pm

Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #13

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:
intheabyss wrote:

The verse does say fear not them (other humans or entities) but Me (allah). Plain and simple - here, one more time:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…" Quran 3:175
You say it doesn't talk about fearing god only, however that is clearly deviating from your quran. So I am to conclude you are not a true follower and are spreading the wrong message of falsehood.
Response: Exactly. It says fear Allah and no one else, in response to the enemy who wants to kill you. Therefore, the context proves that it means to fear Allah only and no one else when trying to kill and defeat the enemy. Thanks for making my point.
Thanks for making my point that you commit shirk once you lie to save your own skin.

Al-Fatihah
Student
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 5:47 am

Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #14

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

Thanks for making my point that you commit shirk once you lie to save your own skin.
Response: Your weak rebuttal says otherwise.

User avatar
sawthelight
Scholar
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:56 pm

Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #15

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote: Response: Your weak rebuttal says otherwise.
Thank you for showing me how convoluted islam is. I am still confused. A religion like yours that is the supposed truth rings no truth to me regarding this matter. If it were truthful, I would have less qualms with it.

You conclude I have a weak rebuttal. Can't change your mind.

I conclude your religion is weak in truth. Using lies as a disguise.

Al-Fatihah
Student
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 5:47 am

Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #16

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

Thank you for showing me how convoluted islam is. I am still confused. A religion like yours that is the supposed truth rings no truth to me regarding this matter. If it were truthful, I would have less qualms with it.

You conclude I have a weak rebuttal. Can't change your mind.

I conclude your religion is weak in truth. Using lies as a disguise.
Response: in other words, your weak attempt to critique Islam failed and now you are off and running. Nothing shocking. That is what happens when you go against the truth by using impotence.

User avatar
sawthelight
Scholar
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:56 pm

Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #17

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: in other words, your weak attempt to critique Islam failed and now you are off and running. Nothing shocking. That is what happens when you go against the truth by using impotence.
You seem pretty defensive to the questions I ask. Quick to call my arguments strawman when I asked a question about islam being about war.

But whatever floats your boat. If you like falsehood so be it. I won't change your mind.

Surely you were 100% right about me running away. And here I still am. What were you saying about impotence? Surely your words have some truth to it, but here I am still rebutting you. What an empty assumption you have made.

Do you use any thought to the arguments you make?

Al-Fatihah
Student
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 5:47 am

Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #18

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

You seem pretty defensive to the questions I ask. Quick to call my arguments strawman when I asked a question about islam being about war.

But whatever floats your boat. If you like falsehood so be it. I won't change your mind.

Surely you were 100% right about me running away. And here I still am. What were you saying about impotence? Surely your words have some truth to it, but here I am still rebutting you. What an empty assumption you have made.

Do you use any thought to the arguments you make?
Response: Just because I easily refute your claims does not mean I'm defense. It simply means you are easily refuted.

User avatar
sawthelight
Scholar
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:56 pm

Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #19

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: Just because I easily refute your claims does not mean I'm defense. It simply means you are easily refuted.
I think from this point on before we continue you should correct yourself about calling my arguments strawman for my attempts to gain clarification. If not, let's not continue. Otherwise we are glossing over your baseless assumptions. And that is not fair for both of us to claim we are speaking truth until that matter is resolved.

However I understand should you choose not to clarify if islam is about a religion of families being at war as a way of life. I understand if you wish to run instead. Unless you want to continue this conversation. If so, please clarify this point otherwise it is pointless to discuss with you.

Al-Fatihah
Student
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 5:47 am

Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #20

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

I think from this point on before we continue you should correct yourself about calling my arguments strawman for my attempts to gain clarification. If not, let's not continue. Otherwise we are glossing over your baseless assumptions. And that is not fair for both of us to claim we are speaking truth until that matter is resolved.

However I understand should you choose not to clarify if islam is about a religion of families being at war as a way of life. I understand if you wish to run instead. Unless you want to continue this conversation. If so, please clarify this point otherwise it is pointless to discuss with you.
Response: Rather, you should correct yourself and desist from making claims, then asking for clarifications. If you were truly doing so, you would not make any claims. the thread itself is you making a claim in the opening statement about taqiyya and providing an argument to support it. You are making a claim. You need to stop being deceptive and pretending you are not.

Post Reply