In the Bhagavad Gita, Prince Arjuna, in the middle of a civil war, does not wish to lead his army into battle because the enemy side is filled with his family members (kinsmen). The great god Krishna tells the prince that it is his earthly duty to do battle with those members of his family and kill them because the war is just and those members of his family have become his enemies. To quote from this analysis, "To kill out of duty, in a state of removal from all self-interest, is virtuous and necessary."
Krishna further says that Arjuna should not be hesitant about this because death is not the end of time on earth. The "selves" of those who die are judged after death and are reincarnated into lives appropriate with that judgment. Therefore, if he kills without emotion, and only out of a sense of duty, he will be justified. Removal of self-interest, removal of ego, removal of emotions are the goals in all things.
Firstly, does anyone believe in reincarnation? If you do, what do you think of this argument?
Secondly, though it is probably necessary to have knowledge about the Hindu faith to fully answer this, is there a philosophical difference between the removal of self-interest in all earthly actions and the "anxiety" speech in Luke 12:16-34 (Matthew 6:25-34 also), or like sayings about coveting earthly desires?
Hinduism
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fried beef sandwich
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Post #2
I don't believe in reincarnation. A lot of the supposedly airtight examples of reincarnation can be easily explained away.
I also don't have an extensive knowledge of the Hindu faith, but as many of the concepts in it are passed down to (Zen) Buddhism/Taoism and the like, I can put in my 2 cents.
Yes, I believe there is a huge difference between the removal of self-interest and removal of covetous attitudes and desires. It's a huge stretch. Jesus was addressing the attitude of materialism and was encouraging his followers to not pursue material wealth and to not be so fixated on it. Instead, he was trying to get people to trust in God's providence.
The removal of self-interest and emotion in order to kill out of duty and necessity really reminds me of the eastern philosophies of Taoism and Zen Buddhism. It's hard to explain, but the reason why you empty yourself of self-interest, etc as a Zen or Taoist practitioner is to achieve clarity of mind and strengthening of your resolve regarding the task before you.
Erm. Tell me if that made any sense.
I also don't have an extensive knowledge of the Hindu faith, but as many of the concepts in it are passed down to (Zen) Buddhism/Taoism and the like, I can put in my 2 cents.
Yes, I believe there is a huge difference between the removal of self-interest and removal of covetous attitudes and desires. It's a huge stretch. Jesus was addressing the attitude of materialism and was encouraging his followers to not pursue material wealth and to not be so fixated on it. Instead, he was trying to get people to trust in God's providence.
The removal of self-interest and emotion in order to kill out of duty and necessity really reminds me of the eastern philosophies of Taoism and Zen Buddhism. It's hard to explain, but the reason why you empty yourself of self-interest, etc as a Zen or Taoist practitioner is to achieve clarity of mind and strengthening of your resolve regarding the task before you.
Erm. Tell me if that made any sense.
Post #3
Makes sense to me. I just wonder. The denial of self in Hinduism sounds eerily close to the denial of pleasures espoused by Christianity. Though Christ did ask followers to "feel" God as some kind of emotion, and Hindus should "feel" the universe on a completely intellectual level, the means appear similar.fried beef sandwich wrote:Yes, I believe there is a huge difference between the removal of self-interest and removal of covetous attitudes and desires. It's a huge stretch. Jesus was addressing the attitude of materialism and was encouraging his followers to not pursue material wealth and to not be so fixated on it. Instead, he was trying to get people to trust in God's providence.
The removal of self-interest and emotion in order to kill out of duty and necessity really reminds me of the eastern philosophies of Taoism and Zen Buddhism. It's hard to explain, but the reason why you empty yourself of self-interest, etc as a Zen or Taoist practitioner is to achieve clarity of mind and strengthening of your resolve regarding the task before you.
Erm. Tell me if that made any sense.
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littlesoul
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Reincarnation & Denial of Pleasures
Post #4Dear ST88,
I've read Bhagavad-gita (The Song of God) for 16 years.
It seems that every man and his dog feels obliged to give their own interpretation on it. For a purely monotheistic and authorized reading, see "Bhagavad-Gita As It Is". I know it can be unfashionable these days to adhere to any particular point of view on anything for fear of being labelled dogmatic or narrow-minded, but truth is truth, ever and anon.
On your first point, yes I beleive in reincarnation or transmigration of the soul. According to the Vedic view, the soul being imperishable, it revolves through various bodies and situations according to the use of free will as manifest in desires and activities. It is a very wholistic understanding. Only by developing pure love (devotion) to God, (via the help and blessings of His purehearted representative) can the soul leave the prison house of this material world join Him.
On the second, yes, they are two different, though related points. Lord Jesus Christ is saying in Luke 12: 16-34 & Matthew 6:25-34, that for the faithful, there need be no anxiety about personal maintenance at all. To say it another way, if God is supplying the food for all the elephants, then why not for His loving worshipper? This is a matter of faith and love.
The point in the Gita that you refer to is a point of philosophy. To approach reality, it is necessary to understand just who we are. We are not this body, but are spirit soul. ( by spirit here I mean a part a& parcel of God; totally non-[gross or subtle]-material ). Like a driver in a car, the soul in the body, when deluded, thinks him- or her-self to be doing all sorts of things that are really just reactions of material nature, reactions to previous activities. By thus seeing materialism as external to our very self, the soul, we can reset our priorities and develop our love for God with far less useless distraction.
Both these points are predicated on love of God. Denial of pleasures of this world is meant to help in this endeavor too.
I've read Bhagavad-gita (The Song of God) for 16 years.
It seems that every man and his dog feels obliged to give their own interpretation on it. For a purely monotheistic and authorized reading, see "Bhagavad-Gita As It Is". I know it can be unfashionable these days to adhere to any particular point of view on anything for fear of being labelled dogmatic or narrow-minded, but truth is truth, ever and anon.
On your first point, yes I beleive in reincarnation or transmigration of the soul. According to the Vedic view, the soul being imperishable, it revolves through various bodies and situations according to the use of free will as manifest in desires and activities. It is a very wholistic understanding. Only by developing pure love (devotion) to God, (via the help and blessings of His purehearted representative) can the soul leave the prison house of this material world join Him.
On the second, yes, they are two different, though related points. Lord Jesus Christ is saying in Luke 12: 16-34 & Matthew 6:25-34, that for the faithful, there need be no anxiety about personal maintenance at all. To say it another way, if God is supplying the food for all the elephants, then why not for His loving worshipper? This is a matter of faith and love.
The point in the Gita that you refer to is a point of philosophy. To approach reality, it is necessary to understand just who we are. We are not this body, but are spirit soul. ( by spirit here I mean a part a& parcel of God; totally non-[gross or subtle]-material ). Like a driver in a car, the soul in the body, when deluded, thinks him- or her-self to be doing all sorts of things that are really just reactions of material nature, reactions to previous activities. By thus seeing materialism as external to our very self, the soul, we can reset our priorities and develop our love for God with far less useless distraction.
Both these points are predicated on love of God. Denial of pleasures of this world is meant to help in this endeavor too.
Post #5
While I think it's true that Jesus adressed the attitude of materialism, it seems to me that there were other teachings of his which lean a bit closer to removal of self-interest:fried beef sandwich wrote:
Yes, I believe there is a huge difference between the removal of self-interest and removal of covetous attitudes and desires. It's a huge stretch. Jesus was addressing the attitude of materialism and was encouraging his followers to not pursue material wealth and to not be so fixated on it. Instead, he was trying to get people to trust in God's providence.
- The teaching regarding "turning the other cheek" from the sermon on the Mount can be taken as being more than simply an injunction against revenge: It may also be a teaching of self control, and mastery of one's strong motivations.
- His teaching of people to take up their cross and follow him, and to be servants to others seems very much to indicate a teaching to limit self-interest.
I think certainly Christ was teaching people to trust in God's providence, but a limitation of one's self-interest seems key as well.
In Buddhism or Hinduism, while there may be teachings about the practical benefits of losing self-interest and emotional attachment, the expressed reason to do so is not to strengthen one's resolve for whatever task is before you, but to see truth more clearly, and to bring one's consciousness and actions more in line with that truth.fried beef sandwich wrote: The removal of self-interest and emotion in order to kill out of duty and necessity really reminds me of the eastern philosophies of Taoism and Zen Buddhism. It's hard to explain, but the reason why you empty yourself of self-interest, etc as a Zen or Taoist practitioner is to achieve clarity of mind and strengthening of your resolve regarding the task before you.
Erm.
(That's a hasty characterization of the goals in my part, but I think more accurate than a task-oriented explanation of them.)
It definately made sense, and was well put.fried beef sandwich wrote: Tell me if that made any sense.
