Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3380
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 263 times
Been thanked: 939 times

Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


I rarely delve into the Islamic faith or any of its elements; however, I did happen upon the following which I found rather interesting.

Please know that the events related below don't appear to mark Muhammad as a pedophile as the term is psychiatricly understood, but rather in it's more colloquial usage as a child sexual molester.

"Evidence that Muhammad was a pedophile.

For the Western mind, perhaps the most disturbing fact about Islam is that its founder had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. Because of this, it has become increasingly popular in some circles to refer to the Prophet of Islam as a "pedophile." This is, of course, extremely offensive to Muslims, who view Muhammad as the ideal servant of God and as the greatest example of what a man should strive to be. Nevertheless, Muhammad’s relationship with a young girl presents a problem for Muslims, especially for those who want to share their faith with others.


The evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the nine-year-old Aisha is too strong to be ignored.


The problem with the selective and carefully edited defense just given (other than the complete lack of references) is that it ignores the numerous accounts we now possess which record Aisha’s age when Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. Many of these accounts are from Aisha herself. Indeed, the evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha is as strong as the evidence for just about any other fact in Islam. We have copious traditions relating Muhammad’s marriage proposal when Aisha was six or seven years old, as well as his consummation of that marriage when she was nine:

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.
Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

.
.
.

ASSESSMENT: While the evidence isn’t enough to condemn Muhammad as a "pedophile," his sexual relationship with Aisha is unacceptable.

Muhammad has been accused of pedophilia in numerous writings, sermons, and conversations. We have seen that the earliest Muslim traditions offer support for this view. However, the evidence sustaining the charge of pedophilia is perhaps too limited to warrant such a harsh conclusion. We know that Muhammad had a sexual relationship with a young girl, and that this was reprehensible. Yet we must take cultural differences into consideration in formulating an accurate appraisal of a person’s character. In Muhammad’s society, sexual intercourse was acceptable when a girl reached menses, and Muhammad may have waited until Aisha had reached this age. (Note: There’s no good historical evidence that Muhammad waited for Aisha to reach menses. However, I think it’s important to be generous in our interpretations as much as possible, so I’m willing to grant, for the sake of argument, that Aisha had reached puberty.)

Similarly, we don’t have enough information to call Muhammad a "pervert." While Muhammad’s sexual acts may seem startling, we don’t know enough about the nature of these acts to condemn him as a sexual deviant or a predator.

Nevertheless, Muslims are too hasty in dismissing Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha. We can’t simply ignore a prophet’s marriage to a nine-year-old girl. Muslims view Muhammad as the highest example of a moral life, but his marriage to Aisha conflicts with that view. If they want to put Muhammad forward as the standard of morality, Muslims need to come to terms with the many questionable things Muhammad did, as well as the awful impact of these actions."
source



So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?

Your thoughts?


.
Last edited by Miles on Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 671 times
Been thanked: 407 times

Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #2

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:55 pmSo, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?
Of course I do. It's 100% culture and 0% objective morality. This race only lives to be nine. Unless you want to force them all into celibacy then you already know such judgments are only applicable to the people in question, and culture is as much, or more, a part of this than naked biology.

Paedophilia is a touchy issue for most Westerners and frankly they need to get over it.

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 819 times

Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #3

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]
So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?

Your thoughts?
I don't think it logical to compare a different culture from a different time to today's standards of one culture.
It's been said by some, Joseph married Mary who was something like 14-15 (I've seen some say she was around 13 when she gave birth - does that make God a pedo? That would offend some Christians I'd think).

Seems odd to me that someone would take an ancient culture and compare it to today's standards if I'm honest.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3380
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 263 times
Been thanked: 939 times

Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #4

Post by Miles »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:02 am [Replying to Miles in post #1]
So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?

Your thoughts?
I don't think it logical to compare a different culture from a different time to today's standards of one culture.
Okay, where does the logic break down?

nobspeople wrote: It's been said by some, Joseph married Mary who was something like 14-15 (I've seen some say she was around 13 when she gave birth - does that make God a pedo? That would offend some Christians I'd think).
I don't believe anyone saying anything about god without good evidence makes him anything. Is there good evidence that Mary was something like 14-15, or around 13 when she gave birth? If not, the claim isn't worth a second thought.

nobspeople wrote: Seems odd to me that someone would take an ancient culture and compare it to today's standards if I'm honest.
Why? Comparing cultures, ancient and otherwise is done all the time.

Image


.

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 819 times

Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #5

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Miles in post #4]
where does the logic break down?
It doesn't seem logical to me to compare, as some do, how we see things today in the USA (let's say) to what people from a tribal society had to experience 2000 years ago. Yes some things hold true across time and cultures, but not everything. Which is the point.
I don't believe anyone saying anything about god without good evidence makes him anything
Which is fine - I'm the same way. I said what I said as a demonstration to the point, not as fact (which is why I said "It's been said by some...").
Comparing cultures, ancient and otherwise is done all the time.
Doesn't mean it's logical in all aspects.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
AgnosticBoy
Guru
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 98 times
Contact:

Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #6

Post by AgnosticBoy »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:36 am [Replying to Miles in post #4]
where does the logic break down?
It doesn't seem logical to me to compare, as some do, how we see things today in the USA (let's say) to what people from a tribal society had to experience 2000 years ago. Yes some things hold true across time and cultures, but not everything. Which is the point.
One exception to this point is when we are dealing divine rules (as opposed to man-made rules). It shouldn't take scientific progress to reveal that something practiced long ago is wrong or harmful to children. If we grant that an all-knowing God exists, and the Holy man was a supposed follower and prophet, then God should've prescribed rules that would be good across all time.

But I agree with your logic if we take God and divine morals out of the picture. At that point, it just turns into one culture imposing itself on another culture.
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum

- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 819 times

Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #7

Post by nobspeople »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:16 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:36 am [Replying to Miles in post #4]
where does the logic break down?
It doesn't seem logical to me to compare, as some do, how we see things today in the USA (let's say) to what people from a tribal society had to experience 2000 years ago. Yes some things hold true across time and cultures, but not everything. Which is the point.
One exception to this point is when we are dealing divine rules (as opposed to man-made rules). It shouldn't take scientific progress to reveal that something practiced long ago is wrong or harmful to children. If we grant that an all-knowing God exists, and the Holy man was a supposed follower and prophet, then God should've prescribed rules that would be good across all time.
Agreed. But I'm old enough to remember people who cited biblical sources used against inter-racial marriage! I'm sure some still exists today, but by in large, it's been my experience that, though some may still not like it, most seem not to think it wrong based on biblical references.
In that regard, I wonder how much was truly 'God's rule' and not 'man's rule attributed to God'? And how much of that still stands today?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 671 times
Been thanked: 407 times

Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #8

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:28 pmBut I'm old enough to remember people who cited biblical sources used against inter-racial marriage! I'm sure some still exists today, but by in large, it's been my experience that, though some may still not like it, most seem not to think it wrong based on biblical references.
In that regard, I wonder how much was truly 'God's rule' and not 'man's rule attributed to God'? And how much of that still stands today?
If Man wasn't such a race of word-twisters and pompous fools we wouldn't have half the problems we do.

Following a bad thing well is perhaps better than following a good thing badly, or not at all, or only pretending to do so.

The problem isn't religion in this case. The problem is that no one is capable of actually listening... to anything. They're only capable of projecting their own feelings onto what they're reading. If the universe was reversed they could read Mein Kampf and get love and tolerance for all races out of it.

People vacillate with the wind. They believe what is trendy, what seems fashionable, and if they do anything consistently, it is to consistently ignore anything that might be inconvenient to the trendiest thing being perfectly correct. We live in a world of Prada morality.

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 819 times

Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #9

Post by nobspeople »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:50 pm
nobspeople wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:28 pmBut I'm old enough to remember people who cited biblical sources used against inter-racial marriage! I'm sure some still exists today, but by in large, it's been my experience that, though some may still not like it, most seem not to think it wrong based on biblical references.
In that regard, I wonder how much was truly 'God's rule' and not 'man's rule attributed to God'? And how much of that still stands today?
If Man wasn't such a race of word-twisters and pompous fools we wouldn't have half the problems we do.

Following a bad thing well is perhaps better than following a good thing badly, or not at all, or only pretending to do so.

The problem isn't religion in this case. The problem is that no one is capable of actually listening... to anything. They're only capable of projecting their own feelings onto what they're reading. If the universe was reversed they could read Mein Kampf and get love and tolerance for all races out of it.

People vacillate with the wind. They believe what is trendy, what seems fashionable, and if they do anything consistently, it is to consistently ignore anything that might be inconvenient to the trendiest thing being perfectly correct. We live in a world of Prada morality.
Sounds right to me! :approve:
In my daily life, I see what mankind can do that's good and what they do that's absolutely terrible. Maybe it's because of the bias I have, but sure seems like mankind screws up more things than not.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

mms20102
Scholar
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:45 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #10

Post by mms20102 »

I will divide my reply to 3 main points.
First, there are some false allegations you mentioned earlier with absolutely no proof.
Where in any Islamic literature related to Sunni Muslims scholars said it was wrong?
Second point “do cultural aspect is reliable reason?”
Going to Well Durant’s book “The Story of Civilization “we will see how he described marriage in several nations and along different points of history and more specifically in Arabia and going to the history of English Kings and Queens you will find the Queen Ealdgyth Daughter of Elfegar whom got married at the age of 6 and had a boy at the age of 7 and remarried at the age of 9 to be a Queen!
Third point “Is it possible to happen? “
According to youngest mothers in history and according to news around the world many females become mature before the age of even 6 with a rare case of Lina Medina the youngest mother in history with only 5 years old and the couple from china that had relationship at the age of 7 both and the girl had a child at the age of 8!
Fourth point “Do we as Muslims marry 9 years old girls and allow anyone to marry children? “
That is the main reason behind your post.
In Islam marriage requires both mental and physical maturity and mainly the first comes after the second and unlike western rules that women become mature at the age of 18, we say women become mature as soon as they have their first “period”, or they reach 9 which ever so no girl can reach maturity under the age 9. Now can we marry those girls that got mature at the age of 9? yes why not? because how many girls can reach maturity at 9? looking at current laws in France and Sweden and Even in USA people are doing the same thing in private and I ask why we do not make it out in public as a full marriage and guarantee all the rights of those girls other than let them go to be future porn stars?

Post Reply