Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

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Miles
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Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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I rarely delve into the Islamic faith or any of its elements; however, I did happen upon the following which I found rather interesting.

Please know that the events related below don't appear to mark Muhammad as a pedophile as the term is psychiatricly understood, but rather in it's more colloquial usage as a child sexual molester.

"Evidence that Muhammad was a pedophile.

For the Western mind, perhaps the most disturbing fact about Islam is that its founder had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. Because of this, it has become increasingly popular in some circles to refer to the Prophet of Islam as a "pedophile." This is, of course, extremely offensive to Muslims, who view Muhammad as the ideal servant of God and as the greatest example of what a man should strive to be. Nevertheless, Muhammad’s relationship with a young girl presents a problem for Muslims, especially for those who want to share their faith with others.


The evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the nine-year-old Aisha is too strong to be ignored.


The problem with the selective and carefully edited defense just given (other than the complete lack of references) is that it ignores the numerous accounts we now possess which record Aisha’s age when Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. Many of these accounts are from Aisha herself. Indeed, the evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha is as strong as the evidence for just about any other fact in Islam. We have copious traditions relating Muhammad’s marriage proposal when Aisha was six or seven years old, as well as his consummation of that marriage when she was nine:

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.
Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

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ASSESSMENT: While the evidence isn’t enough to condemn Muhammad as a "pedophile," his sexual relationship with Aisha is unacceptable.

Muhammad has been accused of pedophilia in numerous writings, sermons, and conversations. We have seen that the earliest Muslim traditions offer support for this view. However, the evidence sustaining the charge of pedophilia is perhaps too limited to warrant such a harsh conclusion. We know that Muhammad had a sexual relationship with a young girl, and that this was reprehensible. Yet we must take cultural differences into consideration in formulating an accurate appraisal of a person’s character. In Muhammad’s society, sexual intercourse was acceptable when a girl reached menses, and Muhammad may have waited until Aisha had reached this age. (Note: There’s no good historical evidence that Muhammad waited for Aisha to reach menses. However, I think it’s important to be generous in our interpretations as much as possible, so I’m willing to grant, for the sake of argument, that Aisha had reached puberty.)

Similarly, we don’t have enough information to call Muhammad a "pervert." While Muhammad’s sexual acts may seem startling, we don’t know enough about the nature of these acts to condemn him as a sexual deviant or a predator.

Nevertheless, Muslims are too hasty in dismissing Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha. We can’t simply ignore a prophet’s marriage to a nine-year-old girl. Muslims view Muhammad as the highest example of a moral life, but his marriage to Aisha conflicts with that view. If they want to put Muhammad forward as the standard of morality, Muslims need to come to terms with the many questionable things Muhammad did, as well as the awful impact of these actions."
source



So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?

Your thoughts?


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Last edited by Miles on Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Miles
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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #11

Post by Miles »

mms20102 wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:02 am In Islam marriage requires both mental and physical maturity and mainly the first comes after the second and unlike western rules that women become mature at the age of 18, we say women become mature as soon as they have their first “period”, or they reach 9 which ever so no girl can reach maturity under the age 9.
Why would a female become mentally mature because they had their first period when there's been absolutely no scientific evidence for it? In fact,

"Under most laws, young people are recognized as adults at age 18. But emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25."
source

Now can we marry those girls that got mature at the age of 9? yes why not?
Why not? Because it's widely recognized that people of that age, and even older, lack the maturity to consent to sexual intercourse, oral sex, anal sex, BSDM, and any other sexual activity. And, of course, if consent isn't required then a guy who insists on sexual intercourse is essentially raping the girl. So it has nothing at all to do with the laws of a country/society, but the maturity of the individual.

And speaking of maturity, how mature is the guy who wants to marry young girls in their early teens or younger? Other than sex, and perhaps a dowry, what else does a young girl have to offer?

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #12

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:41 pmBecause it's widely recognized that people of that age, and even older, lack the maturity to consent to sexual intercourse, oral sex, anal sex, BSDM, and any other sexual activity.
I have a difficult question for you.

I was in college at 13. I could have passed any test you gave me. I was more mature than half the people there, easily. I tutored people twice my age and I was better with the money I made than most of them. Should I have been allowed to have sex?

Let's for the moment ignore the pesky problem of what will admittedly happen when you allow children to "test into" adulthood: They'll be coached to pass so people can take advantage of them. Yes, I know that will happen. My question is not about the law and what it has to be or why, but about the fundamental nature of consent.

Bonus question: Does your answer change if I'm female?

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #13

Post by Miles »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:08 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:41 pmBecause it's widely recognized that people of that age, and even older, lack the maturity to consent to sexual intercourse, oral sex, anal sex, BSDM, and any other sexual activity.
I have a difficult question for you.

I was in college at 13. I could have passed any test you gave me. I was more mature than half the people there, easily. I tutored people twice my age and I was better with the money I made than most of them. Should I have been allowed to have sex?
"Allowed to"? No. Just because someone may be bright certainly doesn't mean they're mature. From Psychology Today:

"What are the marks of maturity?

1. A mature person is able to keep long-term commitments.
2. A mature person is unshaken by flattery or criticism.
3. A mature person possesses a spirit of humility.

4. A mature person’s decisions are based on character, not feelings.
Mature people live by values. They have principles that guide their decisions. They are able to progress beyond merely reacting to life’s options, and be proactive as they live their life. Their character is master over their emotions.

5. A mature person expresses gratitude consistently.
6. A mature person knows how to prioritize others before themselves.
7. A mature person seeks wisdom before acting.
source

Bonus question: Does your answer change if I'm female?
Don't see why it should. Do you?


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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #14

Post by mms20102 »

First, there are some false allegations you mentioned earlier with absolutely no proof.
Where in any Islamic literature related to Sunni Muslims scholars said it was wrong?
I still have no answer to my first point and If you don't have an answer you have to choose between those three options.
1- Tell the readers that you didn't know and you are ignorant about Islamic literature.
2- Tell the readers that there is no literature and you on purpose tried to mislead them.
3- Show to the readers where in Early Islamic Sunni scholars mentioned what you said.
Second point “do cultural aspect is reliable reason?”
I still didn't get any answer regarding this one.

Since the post is aimed totally toward prophet Muhammed I see that we finish the points above related to him then I have no problem discussing marriage and the age of marriage and maturity after all they are topics that I have studied.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #15

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:41 pmDon't see why it should. Do you?
Well, I got a lot more sympathy for my predicament and a lot more disgust and outrage if I tried to apply it to anyone female.
Miles wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:41 pmJust because someone may be bright certainly doesn't mean they're mature. From Psychology Today:

"What are the marks of maturity?

1. A mature person is able to keep long-term commitments.
2. A mature person is unshaken by flattery or criticism.
3. A mature person possesses a spirit of humility.

4. A mature person’s decisions are based on character, not feelings.
Mature people live by values. They have principles that guide their decisions. They are able to progress beyond merely reacting to life’s options, and be proactive as they live their life. Their character is master over their emotions.

5. A mature person expresses gratitude consistently.
6. A mature person knows how to prioritize others before themselves.
7. A mature person seeks wisdom before acting.
source
That's a tall order as a prerequisite for mating. Most adults wouldn't pass that, if applied rigorously. If I have sex with someone shallow who cares what others think of them (hint: no one would wear makeup if this wasn't true) am I then raping them because they're not mature?

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #16

Post by Haven »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:59 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:41 pmDon't see why it should. Do you?
Well, I got a lot more sympathy for my predicament and a lot more disgust and outrage if I tried to apply it to anyone female.
Miles wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:41 pmJust because someone may be bright certainly doesn't mean they're mature. From Psychology Today:

"What are the marks of maturity?

1. A mature person is able to keep long-term commitments.
2. A mature person is unshaken by flattery or criticism.
3. A mature person possesses a spirit of humility.

4. A mature person’s decisions are based on character, not feelings.
Mature people live by values. They have principles that guide their decisions. They are able to progress beyond merely reacting to life’s options, and be proactive as they live their life. Their character is master over their emotions.



5. A mature person expresses gratitude consistently.
6. A mature person knows how to prioritize others before themselves.
7. A mature person seeks wisdom before acting.

source
That's a tall order as a prerequisite for mating. Most adults wouldn't pass that, if applied rigorously. If I have sex with someone shallow who cares what others think of them (hint: no one would wear makeup if this wasn't true) am I then raping them because they're not mature?
There is a big difference between an adult with an immature personality / lifestyle, and an actual nine-year-old child, especially one in a profoundly sexist society that exerted great pressure on young girls to become essentially the property of much older men. A 9-year-old cannot consent to sex even under the best of conditions, let alone in a predatory, systemically pedophilic society such as ancient Arabia. Aisha was a victim of child rape, and Muhammad was a sexual abuser of children, a horrible person who deserves no respect or honor.
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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #17

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Haven in post #17]

As it seems you have no knowledge of history just like many so being Ignorant is something clear in your reply.
Also note that your accusations adds nothing but shows that you are
a horrible person who deserves no respect or honor.
Now getting back to the story of civilization by will durant
In the Omaha tribes the boy of ten had already learned nearly all the arts of his father, and was ready for life; among the Aleuts the boy of ten often set up his own establishment, and sometimes took a wife; in Nigeria children of six or eight would leave the parental house, build a hut, and provide for themselves by hunting and fishing.10 Usually this educational process came to an end with the beginning of sexual life; the precocious maturity was followed by an early stagnation. The boy, under such conditions, was adult at twelve and old at twenty-five. 11 This does not mean that the "savage" had the mind of a child; it only means that he had neither the needs nor the opportunities of the modern child; he did not enjoy that long and protected adolescence which allows a more nearly com-plete transmission of the cultural heritage, and a greater variety and flexibility
of adaptive reactions to an artificial and unstable environment.
https://archive.org/details/TheStoryOfC ... ization_10

As it will always remains, not understanding history and biology will lead to childishness and pure immature behavior and thinking process.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #18

Post by otseng »

mms20102 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:22 am
As it seems you have no knowledge of history just like many so being Ignorant is something clear in your reply.
Also note that your accusations adds nothing but shows that you are
a horrible person who deserves no respect or honor.
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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

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Haven wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:39 pm a horrible person who deserves no respect or honor.
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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #20

Post by Haven »

I apologize. It won’t happen again.
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