Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

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Miles
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Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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I rarely delve into the Islamic faith or any of its elements; however, I did happen upon the following which I found rather interesting.

Please know that the events related below don't appear to mark Muhammad as a pedophile as the term is psychiatricly understood, but rather in it's more colloquial usage as a child sexual molester.

"Evidence that Muhammad was a pedophile.

For the Western mind, perhaps the most disturbing fact about Islam is that its founder had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. Because of this, it has become increasingly popular in some circles to refer to the Prophet of Islam as a "pedophile." This is, of course, extremely offensive to Muslims, who view Muhammad as the ideal servant of God and as the greatest example of what a man should strive to be. Nevertheless, Muhammad’s relationship with a young girl presents a problem for Muslims, especially for those who want to share their faith with others.


The evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the nine-year-old Aisha is too strong to be ignored.


The problem with the selective and carefully edited defense just given (other than the complete lack of references) is that it ignores the numerous accounts we now possess which record Aisha’s age when Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. Many of these accounts are from Aisha herself. Indeed, the evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha is as strong as the evidence for just about any other fact in Islam. We have copious traditions relating Muhammad’s marriage proposal when Aisha was six or seven years old, as well as his consummation of that marriage when she was nine:

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.
Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

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ASSESSMENT: While the evidence isn’t enough to condemn Muhammad as a "pedophile," his sexual relationship with Aisha is unacceptable.

Muhammad has been accused of pedophilia in numerous writings, sermons, and conversations. We have seen that the earliest Muslim traditions offer support for this view. However, the evidence sustaining the charge of pedophilia is perhaps too limited to warrant such a harsh conclusion. We know that Muhammad had a sexual relationship with a young girl, and that this was reprehensible. Yet we must take cultural differences into consideration in formulating an accurate appraisal of a person’s character. In Muhammad’s society, sexual intercourse was acceptable when a girl reached menses, and Muhammad may have waited until Aisha had reached this age. (Note: There’s no good historical evidence that Muhammad waited for Aisha to reach menses. However, I think it’s important to be generous in our interpretations as much as possible, so I’m willing to grant, for the sake of argument, that Aisha had reached puberty.)

Similarly, we don’t have enough information to call Muhammad a "pervert." While Muhammad’s sexual acts may seem startling, we don’t know enough about the nature of these acts to condemn him as a sexual deviant or a predator.

Nevertheless, Muslims are too hasty in dismissing Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha. We can’t simply ignore a prophet’s marriage to a nine-year-old girl. Muslims view Muhammad as the highest example of a moral life, but his marriage to Aisha conflicts with that view. If they want to put Muhammad forward as the standard of morality, Muslims need to come to terms with the many questionable things Muhammad did, as well as the awful impact of these actions."
source



So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?

Your thoughts?


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Last edited by Miles on Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #61

Post by nobspeople »

otseng wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:36 am
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:04 am So while menstruation may have begun, it is not the be-all to the end-all of childhood. Whereas a 9 year-old female may be fertile it doesn't mean she's no longer a child. Almost invariably she has a lot more development (see above) to undergo before becoming an adolescent.
A few points... As nobspeople mentioned, it's fruitless to impose modern standards on people in the past and expect them to conform to our standards.
nobspeople wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:31 am Comparing some socially acceptable things in ancient times to today's standards seems like a gesture that's not very worthwhile IMO.
Even more, our modern standards are constantly changing and what's acceptable even 50 years ago are not acceptable now. Also, who's to say Western standards should be held universally true and apply to Eastern cultures?

Just because an Arab marries a 9 year old in 623 AD does not prove he was a pedophile or even a sexual predator. We cannot impose modern cultural norms to a totally different culture and era.
You CAN impose modern cultural norms to anyone or place one wants. But that doesn't make it logical. This seems only to open said issue up for chastising on one's personal bias.
That said, if we apply this to everything, this would include things from the christian god. Unless god 'gets a pass' on this, too.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #62

Post by Miles »

otseng wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:36 am
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:04 am So while menstruation may have begun, it is not the be-all to the end-all of childhood. Whereas a 9 year-old female may be fertile it doesn't mean she's no longer a child. Almost invariably she has a lot more development (see above) to undergo before becoming an adolescent.
A few points... As nobspeople mentioned, it's fruitless to impose modern standards on people in the past and expect them to conform to our standards.
nobspeople wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:31 am Comparing some socially acceptable things in ancient times to today's standards seems like a gesture that's not very worthwhile IMO.
Gotta agree.

Even more, our modern standards are constantly changing and what's acceptable even 50 years ago are not acceptable now. Also, who's to say Western standards should be held universally true and apply to Eastern cultures?
I agree

Just because an Arab marries a 9 year old in 623 AD does not prove he was a pedophile or even a sexual predator. We cannot impose modern cultural norms to a totally different culture and era.
Absolutely not, which is why, other than my title, which reflected the issue of the quoted material in my OP, and my opening remark, I never brought up "pedophile" in any of my posts except when quoting another poster, and my reply in post 53 where I said:

"Well, 13 years-old is considered to be the dividing line between childhood and adolescence, and the upper limits of pedophilia (actually, it's taken to be from ages 12-13) so Joseph would most likely not be considered to be a pedophile by anyone's standards. Not by mine at least."


And please note that my question in the OP:

"So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?
Your thoughts?"

Had nothing to do with pedophilia, a psychiatric disorder. Pedophilia in any post was first brought up by muslimforever in the third page of the thread in post 29.


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Last edited by Miles on Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #63

Post by muslimforever »

"So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?
Your thoughts?"

"Had nothing to do with pedophilia, a psychiatric disorder. Pedophilia in any post was first brought up by muslimforever in the third page of the thread in post 29".


No I didn't!!
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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #64

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Miles in post #62]

Like Mr. Otseng said earlier presenting a misleading headline is the first issue, since it's provoking to any Muslim.

If the problem we are discussing is whether cultural differences is enough then ok you can watch the arguments presented in this video, I guess he covered every point what so ever with evidences.



If you have any point left to debate let me know.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #65

Post by Miles »

mms20102 wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:40 pm [Replying to Miles in post #62]

Like Mr. Otseng said earlier presenting a misleading headline is the first issue, since it's provoking to any Muslim.

If the problem we are discussing is whether cultural differences is enough then ok you can watch the arguments presented in this video, I guess he covered every point what so ever with evidences.

If you have any point left to debate let me know.

One question: Why should an honest question, ANY honest question, be offensive? What lurks behind the offense that raises a Muslim's dander?


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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #66

Post by otseng »

Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:03 pm One question: Why should an honest question, ANY honest question, be offensive? What lurks behind the offense that raises a Muslim's dander?
A honest question is fine. But the title of the thread does not present it that way - "Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester"

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #67

Post by Miles »

otseng wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:16 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:03 pm One question: Why should an honest question, ANY honest question, be offensive? What lurks behind the offense that raises a Muslim's dander?
A honest question is fine. But the title of the thread does not present it that way - "Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester"
I would agree, but because the article I quoted in the OP raises just this question, I felt the title was warranted. If you don't feel this meets the criteria for honesty, I apologize for my lack of understanding of the Muslim psyche and the resulting disturbance it's caused.

None of it was posted with malice in mind.


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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #68

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Miles in post #67]

First it's a good thing that your intention wasn't causing problems, but since we have reached an agreement I hope either the headline is changed or the post closed.

Demoralization and accusations based on random writings is not acceptable, because it's a repetition of islamophopic statements that was refuted long time ago.

Even prophet Muhammad's enemies never used such statements because they knew it's baseless.

Usually such questions arise because of misunderstanding of Islamic literature.

When you asked if a 28 years old girl never had menstruation would she not marry ?

The answer is actually available if you read the science of "Fiqh" you will find the extreme cases and how to deal with them.

In Islam each person has his set of rules to follow, what can fit one person can't fit the other, because rules change with circumstances.

Let's take an example.

Before doing prayers in Islam we have to use clean water if available so it's a must, but what if we can't find water, or an old man can't use water due to its freezing temperature or due to his illness, then he can use fine clean dust from the ground and if the dust will cause problems also, then he will pray directly without anything just like if someone is imprisoned.

Sharia in Islam is not fixed for everyone and every generation, so what can fit someone might not fit the other.

I hope you study Islam further to remove your misunderstanding and If you need any help with any text I can be there to help.

David wood and others like him are saying nothing but lies only people who study Islam unbiasedly will understand.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #69

Post by Miles »

mms20102 wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:11 pm [Replying to Miles in post #67]

First it's a good thing that your intention wasn't causing problems, but since we have reached an agreement I hope either the headline is changed or the post closed.
I don't believe censorship (closing the post) is warranted; however, I did add a question mark to the title, which I had inadvertently left out.


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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #70

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Miles in post #69]

Well you could have added "or a normal person" to show good intention

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