Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

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Miles
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Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


I rarely delve into the Islamic faith or any of its elements; however, I did happen upon the following which I found rather interesting.

Please know that the events related below don't appear to mark Muhammad as a pedophile as the term is psychiatricly understood, but rather in it's more colloquial usage as a child sexual molester.

"Evidence that Muhammad was a pedophile.

For the Western mind, perhaps the most disturbing fact about Islam is that its founder had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. Because of this, it has become increasingly popular in some circles to refer to the Prophet of Islam as a "pedophile." This is, of course, extremely offensive to Muslims, who view Muhammad as the ideal servant of God and as the greatest example of what a man should strive to be. Nevertheless, Muhammad’s relationship with a young girl presents a problem for Muslims, especially for those who want to share their faith with others.


The evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the nine-year-old Aisha is too strong to be ignored.


The problem with the selective and carefully edited defense just given (other than the complete lack of references) is that it ignores the numerous accounts we now possess which record Aisha’s age when Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. Many of these accounts are from Aisha herself. Indeed, the evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha is as strong as the evidence for just about any other fact in Islam. We have copious traditions relating Muhammad’s marriage proposal when Aisha was six or seven years old, as well as his consummation of that marriage when she was nine:

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.
Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

.
.
.

ASSESSMENT: While the evidence isn’t enough to condemn Muhammad as a "pedophile," his sexual relationship with Aisha is unacceptable.

Muhammad has been accused of pedophilia in numerous writings, sermons, and conversations. We have seen that the earliest Muslim traditions offer support for this view. However, the evidence sustaining the charge of pedophilia is perhaps too limited to warrant such a harsh conclusion. We know that Muhammad had a sexual relationship with a young girl, and that this was reprehensible. Yet we must take cultural differences into consideration in formulating an accurate appraisal of a person’s character. In Muhammad’s society, sexual intercourse was acceptable when a girl reached menses, and Muhammad may have waited until Aisha had reached this age. (Note: There’s no good historical evidence that Muhammad waited for Aisha to reach menses. However, I think it’s important to be generous in our interpretations as much as possible, so I’m willing to grant, for the sake of argument, that Aisha had reached puberty.)

Similarly, we don’t have enough information to call Muhammad a "pervert." While Muhammad’s sexual acts may seem startling, we don’t know enough about the nature of these acts to condemn him as a sexual deviant or a predator.

Nevertheless, Muslims are too hasty in dismissing Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha. We can’t simply ignore a prophet’s marriage to a nine-year-old girl. Muslims view Muhammad as the highest example of a moral life, but his marriage to Aisha conflicts with that view. If they want to put Muhammad forward as the standard of morality, Muslims need to come to terms with the many questionable things Muhammad did, as well as the awful impact of these actions."
source



So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?

Your thoughts?


.
Last edited by Miles on Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #51

Post by muslimforever »

Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #49[/url]]
It's predatory behaviour, plain and simple.

If Allah's cool with pedophilia (clinical term), I ain't cool with Allah.


Well you should be "cool" with Allah!!
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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #52

Post by nobspeople »

Miles wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:55 pm .


I rarely delve into the Islamic faith or any of its elements; however, I did happen upon the following which I found rather interesting.

Please know that the events related below don't appear to mark Muhammad as a pedophile as the term is psychiatricly understood, but rather in it's more colloquial usage as a child sexual molester.

"Evidence that Muhammad was a pedophile.

For the Western mind, perhaps the most disturbing fact about Islam is that its founder had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. Because of this, it has become increasingly popular in some circles to refer to the Prophet of Islam as a "pedophile." This is, of course, extremely offensive to Muslims, who view Muhammad as the ideal servant of God and as the greatest example of what a man should strive to be. Nevertheless, Muhammad’s relationship with a young girl presents a problem for Muslims, especially for those who want to share their faith with others.


The evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the nine-year-old Aisha is too strong to be ignored.


The problem with the selective and carefully edited defense just given (other than the complete lack of references) is that it ignores the numerous accounts we now possess which record Aisha’s age when Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. Many of these accounts are from Aisha herself. Indeed, the evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha is as strong as the evidence for just about any other fact in Islam. We have copious traditions relating Muhammad’s marriage proposal when Aisha was six or seven years old, as well as his consummation of that marriage when she was nine:

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.
Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

.
.
.

ASSESSMENT: While the evidence isn’t enough to condemn Muhammad as a "pedophile," his sexual relationship with Aisha is unacceptable.

Muhammad has been accused of pedophilia in numerous writings, sermons, and conversations. We have seen that the earliest Muslim traditions offer support for this view. However, the evidence sustaining the charge of pedophilia is perhaps too limited to warrant such a harsh conclusion. We know that Muhammad had a sexual relationship with a young girl, and that this was reprehensible. Yet we must take cultural differences into consideration in formulating an accurate appraisal of a person’s character. In Muhammad’s society, sexual intercourse was acceptable when a girl reached menses, and Muhammad may have waited until Aisha had reached this age. (Note: There’s no good historical evidence that Muhammad waited for Aisha to reach menses. However, I think it’s important to be generous in our interpretations as much as possible, so I’m willing to grant, for the sake of argument, that Aisha had reached puberty.)

Similarly, we don’t have enough information to call Muhammad a "pervert." While Muhammad’s sexual acts may seem startling, we don’t know enough about the nature of these acts to condemn him as a sexual deviant or a predator.

Nevertheless, Muslims are too hasty in dismissing Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha. We can’t simply ignore a prophet’s marriage to a nine-year-old girl. Muslims view Muhammad as the highest example of a moral life, but his marriage to Aisha conflicts with that view. If they want to put Muhammad forward as the standard of morality, Muslims need to come to terms with the many questionable things Muhammad did, as well as the awful impact of these actions."
source



So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?

Your thoughts?


.
I heard a few times, Mary was 13 when she married Joseph. If that's true, today, Joe could be considered a pedophile, too.
So what?
Seems like humor, many things that are good/bad today weren't in ancient times.
Comparing some socially acceptable things in ancient times to today's standards seems like a gesture that's not very worthwhile IMO.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #53

Post by Miles »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:31 am
Miles wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:55 pm .


I rarely delve into the Islamic faith or any of its elements; however, I did happen upon the following which I found rather interesting.

Please know that the events related below don't appear to mark Muhammad as a pedophile as the term is psychiatricly understood, but rather in it's more colloquial usage as a child sexual molester.

"Evidence that Muhammad was a pedophile.

For the Western mind, perhaps the most disturbing fact about Islam is that its founder had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. Because of this, it has become increasingly popular in some circles to refer to the Prophet of Islam as a "pedophile." This is, of course, extremely offensive to Muslims, who view Muhammad as the ideal servant of God and as the greatest example of what a man should strive to be. Nevertheless, Muhammad’s relationship with a young girl presents a problem for Muslims, especially for those who want to share their faith with others.


The evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the nine-year-old Aisha is too strong to be ignored.


The problem with the selective and carefully edited defense just given (other than the complete lack of references) is that it ignores the numerous accounts we now possess which record Aisha’s age when Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. Many of these accounts are from Aisha herself. Indeed, the evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha is as strong as the evidence for just about any other fact in Islam. We have copious traditions relating Muhammad’s marriage proposal when Aisha was six or seven years old, as well as his consummation of that marriage when she was nine:

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.
Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

.
.
.

ASSESSMENT: While the evidence isn’t enough to condemn Muhammad as a "pedophile," his sexual relationship with Aisha is unacceptable.

Muhammad has been accused of pedophilia in numerous writings, sermons, and conversations. We have seen that the earliest Muslim traditions offer support for this view. However, the evidence sustaining the charge of pedophilia is perhaps too limited to warrant such a harsh conclusion. We know that Muhammad had a sexual relationship with a young girl, and that this was reprehensible. Yet we must take cultural differences into consideration in formulating an accurate appraisal of a person’s character. In Muhammad’s society, sexual intercourse was acceptable when a girl reached menses, and Muhammad may have waited until Aisha had reached this age. (Note: There’s no good historical evidence that Muhammad waited for Aisha to reach menses. However, I think it’s important to be generous in our interpretations as much as possible, so I’m willing to grant, for the sake of argument, that Aisha had reached puberty.)

Similarly, we don’t have enough information to call Muhammad a "pervert." While Muhammad’s sexual acts may seem startling, we don’t know enough about the nature of these acts to condemn him as a sexual deviant or a predator.

Nevertheless, Muslims are too hasty in dismissing Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha. We can’t simply ignore a prophet’s marriage to a nine-year-old girl. Muslims view Muhammad as the highest example of a moral life, but his marriage to Aisha conflicts with that view. If they want to put Muhammad forward as the standard of morality, Muslims need to come to terms with the many questionable things Muhammad did, as well as the awful impact of these actions."
source



So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?

Your thoughts?


.
I heard a few times, Mary was 13 when she married Joseph. If that's true, today, Joe could be considered a pedophile, too.
So what?
Well, 13 years-old is considered to be the dividing line between childhood and adolescence, and the upper limits of pedophilia (actually, it's taken to be from ages 12-13) so Joseph would most likely not be considered to be a pedophile by anyone's standards. Not by mine at least.

Now maybe you don't feel there's any difference between a 9 year-old girl and a 13 year-old girl being married, but I do.

If your nine year-old daughter wanted to marry an adult male would you be fine with that, or would you prefer that she wait until she was at least thirteen?

FOR COMPARISON:


...................... Image

Comparing some socially acceptable things in ancient times to today's standards seems like a gesture that's not very worthwhile IMO.
Which goes right to my question:

"So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?

Your thoughts? "

Thank you for your input.



.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #54

Post by muslimforever »

@Miles: I really don't know why you continue to bother with this; ALLAH (GOD) sanctioned the marriage between our Prophet Muhammad and Aisha, so that's why it went ahead; So what are you trying to prove, Miles?
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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #55

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Miles in post #53]

Now maybe you don't feel there's any difference between a 9 year-old girl and a 13 year-old girl being married, but I do.

If your nine year-old daughter wanted to marry an adult male would you be fine with that, or would you prefer that she wait until she was at least thirteen?
Appeal to emotion fallacy

Well Miles I don't know why you keep repeating yourself.
1- Where is the prove that 9 years old girls don't reach puberty.
2- Where is the standard age where girls can be called children and how this standard is achieved in old times?!
3- Based on what should we condemn a relationship?!

.....
In the bible ( song of songs ) 8:8
We have a little sister, And she has no breasts. What shall we do for our sister In the day when she is spoken for?
The day when she is spoken for? = (Engaged)

As we can see development of breasts is a one sign of maturity in the bible yet I don't consider it enough.
Since in science physical maturity is achieved by reaching Menstruation.

And for historical evidence you didn't seem to read my earlier reply so let me repeat part of it.

An 8-year-old-girl gave birth to a healthy baby boy, who was fathered by a 9-year-old. They are the youngest recorded parents, in combined age.[13] They were farmers, with the surname Hsi, from Amoy, Fukien.[14]
Can we consider the two as childs and not physically adults ?!.

https://www.webmd.com/children/ss/slide ... rty-stages

From the post I will take the important sentences

Puberty's changes start when the brain triggers the production of sex hormones. Although physical changes follow a predictable pattern, every child develops at their own pace.

Menstruation is a sign that they're physically an adult and able to get pregnant.

Puberty changes do not follow the typical pattern of development.
Now Miles tell me

4- where is your evidence not to call a girl who reached Menstruation physically adult ?!

In Islam we have certain rules for a girl to marry, I don't know if you have rules in the bible I would like you to tell me

5- what are the rules from the bible where girls can get married.

I hope to get answers this time, not more fallacies.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #56

Post by otseng »

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:23 pm Well, 13 years-old is considered to be the dividing line between childhood and adolescence, and the upper limits of pedophilia (actually, it's taken to be from ages 12-13) so Joseph would most likely not be considered to be a pedophile by anyone's standards. Not by mine at least.
Not to comment on if Muhammad was morally right or wrong to have a 9 year old wife, but it seems like the dividing line you are pointing out is not really age, but point of puberty. And it's possible for a 9 year old to be in puberty.

"According to the National Institutes of Health, puberty usually begins in girls between 8 and 13 years of age, and in boys between 9 and 14 years of age. "
https://www.dukehealth.org/blog/when-puberty-too-early

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #57

Post by Miles »

mms20102 wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:24 am [Replying to Miles in post #53]

Now maybe you don't feel there's any difference between a 9 year-old girl and a 13 year-old girl being married, but I do.

If your nine year-old daughter wanted to marry an adult male would you be fine with that, or would you prefer that she wait until she was at least thirteen?
Appeal to emotion fallacy
"Emotion fallacy"? Just what emotion is that? The emotion of preference?

1- Where is the prove that 9 years old girls don't reach puberty.
Don't believe that there is any, but so what?

2- Where is the standard age where girls can be called children
Well, for one, if you look up "pedophilia" in the Merck Manual, Professional Version you can find it there.

and how this standard is achieved in old times?!
Haven't the faintest.

3- Based on what should we condemn a relationship?!
If it hurts someone or is against the law. God had many such laws, many quite reasonable, others down right imbicilic.

As we can see development of breasts is a one sign of maturity in the bible yet I don't consider it enough.
Since in science physical maturity is achieved by reaching Menstruation.
I await your scientific proof. A statement linked to a true scientific source will do. (FYI: physical maturity involves more than menstruating.)

And for historical evidence you didn't seem to read my earlier reply so let me repeat part of it.
An 8-year-old-girl gave birth to a healthy baby boy, who was fathered by a 9-year-old. They are the youngest recorded parents, in combined age.[13] They were farmers, with the surname Hsi, from Amoy, Fukien.[14]
Can we consider the two as childs: ["children"?] and not physically adults ?!.
Sure, just as we can consider a 24 year-old female who has primary amenorrhea (a female over a certain age who has never menstruated) an adult woman.

But I've grown weary of this silliness, so go ahead and have the last word.


.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #58

Post by Miles »

otseng wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:56 am
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:23 pm Well, 13 years-old is considered to be the dividing line between childhood and adolescence, and the upper limits of pedophilia (actually, it's taken to be from ages 12-13) so Joseph would most likely not be considered to be a pedophile by anyone's standards. Not by mine at least.
Not to comment on if Muhammad was morally right or wrong to have a 9 year old wife, but it seems like the dividing line you are pointing out is not really age, but point of puberty. And it's possible for a 9 year old to be in puberty.

"According to the National Institutes of Health, puberty usually begins in girls between 8 and 13 years of age, and in boys between 9 and 14 years of age. "
https://www.dukehealth.org/blog/when-puberty-too-early
Well, I never brought up puberty, a physical developmental state, but took my definition of childhood from the topic of pedophilia in the Merck Manual: Professional Version, which says

Diagnosis of Pedophilic Disorders
Clinical criteria for diagnosis (based on Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition [DSM-5]) of pedophilic disorder are
  • Recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving a prepubescent child or children (usually ≤ 13 years) have been present for ≥ 6 months.


Moreover, according to the Merck Manual: Professional Version childhood involves much more than physical development. It also includes "Motor Development, Language Development, Cognitive Development, and Emotional and Behavioral Development." All of which is listed as lasting anywhere from ages 2 to12
source

For example, under Emotional and Behavioral Development we read that:

At age 7 to 12 years, children work through numerous issues: self-concept, the foundation for which is laid by competency in the classroom; relationships with peers, which are determined by the ability to socialize and fit in well; and family relationships, which are determined in part by the approval children gain from parents and siblings. Although many children seem to place a high value on the peer group, they still look primarily to parents for support and guidance. Siblings can serve as role models and as valuable supports and critics regarding what can and cannot be done. This period of time is very active for children, who engage in many activities and are eager to explore new activities. At this age, children are eager learners and often respond well to advice about safety, healthy lifestyles, and avoidance of high-risk behaviors.

So while menstruation may have begun, it is not the be-all to the end-all of childhood. Whereas a 9 year-old female may be fertile it doesn't mean she's no longer a child. Almost invariably she has a lot more development (see above) to undergo before becoming an adolescent.


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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #59

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Miles in post #53]
13 years-old is considered to be the dividing line between childhood and adolescence
I'm not sure all would agree with that across the board. Maybe in the time of Joey and Mary this was the case, however. I don't know as I wasn't there (I'm not THAT old, thank you very much! :P )
Now maybe you don't feel there's any difference between a 9 year-old girl and a 13 year-old girl being married, but I do.
There certainly is a difference. That doesn't mean turning 13 automatically means you're marriage material today IMO.
If your nine year-old daughter wanted to marry an adult male would you be fine with that, or would you prefer that she wait until she was at least thirteen?
Neither.
"So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?
Depends on what constitutes 'cultural differences' I suppose.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #60

Post by otseng »

Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:04 am So while menstruation may have begun, it is not the be-all to the end-all of childhood. Whereas a 9 year-old female may be fertile it doesn't mean she's no longer a child. Almost invariably she has a lot more development (see above) to undergo before becoming an adolescent.
A few points... As nobspeople mentioned, it's fruitless to impose modern standards on people in the past and expect them to conform to our standards.
nobspeople wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:31 am Comparing some socially acceptable things in ancient times to today's standards seems like a gesture that's not very worthwhile IMO.
Even more, our modern standards are constantly changing and what's acceptable even 50 years ago are not acceptable now. Also, who's to say Western standards should be held universally true and apply to Eastern cultures?

Just because an Arab marries a 9 year old in 623 AD does not prove he was a pedophile or even a sexual predator. We cannot impose modern cultural norms to a totally different culture and era.

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