Can atheists and believers agree in one religion?

przemeknowicki · Post by **przemeknowicki** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:56 pm

I am thinking of retirement and about summarizing my life experiences in a book on politics and religion. I hope it is not against the rules of this forum to point you to my website because I need it to start the discussion.
Here it is www.freedomgates.net
Please skip the political part and read what I had to say in the religion section.
Tell me please if you have any thoughts, comments, agreements and disagreements. Forums have always been my best inspiration and I hope again to gather more material for my book. I hope to learn from you.

Thank you for participating.

Thomas Orr (my assumed name)

przemeknowicki · Post by **przemeknowicki** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:04 pm

BeHereNow wrote:Yes, przemeknowicki,
The message of Christianity is the Life of Christ, not the Death of Jesus.

Wow, that's a good starting point for the more detatailed discussion. Well, if you feel like it.

Regards,

Thomas Orr (aka przemeknowicki)

BeHereNow · Post by **BeHereNow** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:29 pm

The message of Christ was that man could live a spiritually fulfilled life without knowing the letter of the law.
Like The Buddha before him, The Christ saw the hopelessness those of their faith were experiencing. It was revealed to both of them that the life they lived gave them the Oneness with the Eternal that they (we) desired. Life gives eternal life, it is not necessary to die (as contemporary Hindus and Jews believed), and this Oneness is available to each of us.

przemeknowicki · Post by **przemeknowicki** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:28 pm

BeHereNow wrote:The message of Christ was that man could live a spiritually fulfilled life without knowing the letter of the law.
Like The Buddha before him, The Christ saw the hopelessness those of their faith were experiencing. It was revealed to both of them that the life they lived gave them the Oneness with the Eternal that they (we) desired. Life gives eternal life, it is not necessary to die (as contemporary Hindus and Jews believed), and this Oneness is available to each of us.

Yes, I like your interpretation. However, I insist that the political component of Christ's message must not be discarded. Free and just society encourages and nurtures the spiritual quest of individual. Many of those seeking enlightment chose to detach themselves from society. They wouldn't have to if the society was governed by the law of freedom, friendship, respect and justice.

Regards,

Thomas Orr

BeHereNow · Post by **BeHereNow** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:10 pm

“Free and just” are of course relative terms. Your freedom may be my prison.
The Messiah expected was to be political, so for Jesus to fulfill the prophesy, he would have to be political. In that sense it was required of him to be political. Was it integral to his message (?) . . .tell me more.

Detachment is often chosen even when freedom and justice abound. It is through detachment that Oneness is achieved. I believe we have different detachments in mind. “In the world but not of it” comes to mind. I believe the detachment you refer to is a separation from the Now. A departure from the “worldliness” of being. Leaving the daily grind behind. The detachment I am thinking of allows the continuation of daily living (and all that it entails), but concurrently unites past-present-future being with the Eternal. The detachment of Being and Nothingness.

Your comments remind me of Liberation Theology. A movement I admire. It is one thing to say the soul is more important than the body, but the purpose of life is life. I know one of Jesus’ teaching would seem to refute this, but only if taken out of context. The inner being will find it difficult to prosper if the body suffers. An end to suffering is a goal of every Buddhist, and suffering is primarily mental. It is possible to end suffering even as the body dies. It is easier to end suffering if the body is comfortable.
Enlightenment can come regardless of the political environment. A free and just society would make the experience more enjoyable, and possibly easier (not sure about that one).
You really do need to explain the political imperative of Christ’s message. I’m not sure I’m grasping.

przemeknowicki · Post by **przemeknowicki** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:17 pm

Corvus wrote:But God decides when it is murder and when it is killing. The point is that God is not subject to these absolutes of which you speak, but the absolutes are subject to God.

Corvus, don't you think that speaking of God is always something of a paradox? Those who have a clear message don't need God to capture the hearts of wise people. Remove God from your message and God will fill your message with His spirit. The more you talk about God the more distant you are from Him.

The simple observation I've just made is so apparent when you objectively analyze different belief systems, or even the political history of the world for that matter. The more tolerant and inclusive the nation the more prosperous and peaceful it becomes. The less you push your concept of God into other people's throat the more awarded by God you seem to be. Indeed, mysterious are God's ways.

Christian philosophy as expressed in this and other forums including the latest election campaign is very pessimistic. It is all about evil people, sins, God's wrath and condemnation. According to some social justice is not possible. Jesus Christ would not allow it to happen as He promised that poor people will always be around so good Christian can exercise the virtue of charity. I didn't invent this. This belief was expressed by my Christian friend.

If your good deeds are done for the sake of good deeds and don't lead anywhere in terms of the social changes and building of a better society what does it say about your religion? Are you working for the Kingdom of God or you just perpetuate some Evil Empire?

My point is that your dissecting of the Bible and Christian beliefs is only an intellectual exercise demonstrating your good logic and debating skills. Unfortunately it leads nowhere as far as pursuit of the truth is concerned. This is not to criticize your postings. Just an observation.

Regards,

Thomas Orr

BeHereNow · Post by **BeHereNow** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:23 pm

My apologies.
I have not completely read all of this thread and especially your link. Allow me to read them tomorrow and get back to you on the polictical impertive.

przemeknowicki · Post by **przemeknowicki** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:50 pm

BeHereNow wrote:“Free and just” are of course relative terms. Your freedom may be my prison.

BeHereNow, my philosophy is down to earth and I don't use term "freedom" in some abstract sense. Being free to me is to belong to a society (we human are social creatures) and yet be able to express yourself freely. Some European countries (take Holland as the most prominent example) come quite close to embrace such an ideal. However, the modern democracies of the world today are all built around the concept of private property. This is the major flaw preventing the nations from securing the economical freedom to its citizens.

It is interesting to note that Western culture is a little blinded by their love of abstract with the neglect of practical. The liberal Europe is now paying the price in not knowing how to deal with the invasion of fundamental Islam into their tolerant and free societies. They allowed the problem to grow because they chose to follow the abstract ideal of tolerance instead of the practical one.

So, what I mean is that if you understand "freedom and justice" in practical terms, as I suggest, my freedom will not be your prison. It will be our freedom in and by the free society.

Regarding your other questions I prefer not to speak about the spiritual message of Jesus Christ. I am a prophet and as a Spokesman of God I am the politician and not the spiritual advisor. The Kingdom of God has room for many spiritual beliefs and I am in no position to favor some over the others. However, let me give you a clue. Spiritual beliefs are the results and means of pursuing one's happiness. If you want to know how close to the truth you are ask yourself how happy you are. Let the saints, mystics and great spiritual teachers inspire you but do not allow anybody to dictate you what you have to believe.

Regards,

Thomas Orr

przemeknowicki · Post by **przemeknowicki** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:57 pm

BeHereNow wrote:My apologies.
I have not completely read all of this thread and especially your link. Allow me to read them tomorrow and get back to you on the polictical impertive.

Apologies not needed. Our debate is going well with or without your visiting my link.

Regards,

Thomas Orr

Amadeus · Post by **Amadeus** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:43 am

przemeknowicki wrote:
Amadeus wrote:NOT ADAM AND EVE"S SINS. YOUR AND MY SINS. A sin can be a little thing like a lie, or not honoring your parents, or treating someone unfairly. You have sinned. Just think about it.

Predictably as a "true Christian" you steer the discussion into focusing on the small picture. Your sins, your parents, your friends, your prayers.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think Jesus Christ was more interested in the small picture, or in the big picture? Adepts of Yogi attempt to break the little self and encompass the entire Universe in their meditations. Do you think Jesus Christ would settle for less? Do you think that God is more interested in accounting for all your little sins and shortcomings, or He would be more interested in creating the just society where even your shortcomings don't amount to much?

Well, I am a prophet and I am interested in the big picture. I am not interested in analyzing your little sins. May peace be with you.

Regards,

Thomas Orr

Yes, actually. I trust the Bible. You may not, but I do. Also a Holy and righteous God cannot stand to have any ammount of evil. It is rebellion. The Bible is clear when is states that "the wages of sin is death, which is not just physical death, but spiritual death...separation from the presence of God forever.

My God cares enough about His people that He decided it would be best if we were made clean so we could spend eternity with Him.

BeHereNow · Post by **BeHereNow** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:35 pm

I have been to Freedom Gates.
Well, Thomas Orr.
What can I say?
Am I still a convert even if I do not have to change any of my thoughts, words or deeds?
It was hard to tell if the words went from the page to my mind, or from my mind to the page.
So many thoughts that I’ve had but you’ve expressed them so succinctly.
I have a prophet, and his name is Thomas Orr.