Is the Qu'ran self-evidently true?

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McCulloch
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Is the Qu'ran self-evidently true?

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Post by McCulloch »

paarsurrey wrote:Quran is self-evident, yes very truly.
Is the Qu'ran self-evidently true?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Re: Is the Qu'ran self-evidently true?

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Post by T-mash »

McCulloch wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:Quran is self-evident, yes very truly.
Is the Qu'ran self-evidently true?
Nothing is self-evidently true.
Isn’t this enough? Just this world?
Just this beautiful, complex, wonderfully unfathomable natural world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?
- Tim Minchin

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Re: Is the Qu'ran self-evidently true?

Post #62

Post by McCulloch »

T-mash wrote:Nothing is self-evidently true.
Shhhh! Don't let any of the Americans hear you.
Thomas Jefferson in the American Declaration of Independence wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Of course, he didn't really mean all men, that came later.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #63

Post by TrueReligion »

goat wrote:
TrueReligion wrote:
goat wrote:
TrueReligion wrote: I know, this is the point which I'am trying to make, that so many contradictions and un-authentication of Jewish and christian scriptures lead us to believe, that they can;t be taken as authentic,
Have you ever heard, or read about un-authenticity of any of chapter of Quran, or something like this?
Rest make your decision, Ive given enough strength to provide proofs. I dont want to win applause or anything, or like arguments for sake of making some1 down, my purpose is to provide truth, throuth authentic and reliable sources and justification.
Thanks, its time for me to go, I will be going for 2-3 weeks out of country, wil be in touch here time to time
Regards to every1
IFunny, the same can be said for the Koran, despite your denial of that.

However, I am not worried about the 'truth' and 'authentication' of any of the scriptures. You seem to think that trying to point out contradictions in the Jewish scriptures , and the CHristian scriptures it makes the Koran right. That is not true, since the Koran bases many of it's concepts on the earlier traditions.

I will also note that it is only in the Koran that there is a whole chapter devoted to the reality of the Jinn. When you can show me objective and tangible evidence of Jinn actually existing, and not just words of someone explaining what Jinn are, and making unsupported claims about them, then we will discuss that 'truth' of the Koran.
Now you are changing your words Goat:) Just in lasst post, you said about the doubtfulnes of Book of Job, now you say that you r'nt worried for the authentication of these books, and still want to get reference from them. So its something wrong going on, we need 1 point for you to stand, either you take words of these books completly, or reject from your claim.

Now the physical evidence of Jinns and Satan, As its a known fact , that the Satan is from Jinns, and its un-seen creature, from fire with no smokke.

If a normal person will ask you, show me the signals of radio, waves transmission, physiicaly, how can you show him
?

How can you show any person DNA? or protein , how they look like? How you can show the signals our parts of body are receiving from brain physicaly?

So this claim of yours that you wil believe in Jinnns only physicaly, and not any personal experiennce, is useless, and not valid. Its the belief in all the religious scriptures, I can;t say for science, because many of times science changedd the claims and proofs.
Tthanks
Yes, I can show someone DNA and protein using a scanning tunneling microscope, and show people experiments that show how both protiens and DNA react.

Yes, science has changed claims on a number of times. They will change claims based on something called 'Evidence' ,and 'testable and repeatable observations'.
Experience has shown us that personal testimony is unreliable.

So, how do you detect a Jinn??
You will show experiment results , but you can;t show them in real:)
Science make its claim on theories and experiments, and assumptions, but many things science could;nt detect in real.
Did anny1 saw in real if ape-man turn into human? or they just made assumptions?

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Post #64

Post by TrueReligion »

Wyvern wrote:
I understand djinns are arabic what I don't understand is why you keep insisting Satan is one of a class of creature that did not exist until at least a half millenia AFTER Satan was first mentioned. Christians say Satan is a fallen angel, you say Satan is a djinn, instead of insisting you are right make your case.
For your and Goat's easy reference, I quoted again a neutral and authentic site, you can check in the post, where Goat also agreed that Satan in Islam and Christianity is same. we are discussin now for Judaism, which is also mention in the link that its same, and I would like you to read it completely, before making any comment.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Satan#Islam
I read the linked site article and guess what it also says that in christianity Satan is a fallen angel and in islam Satan is a djinn. Maybe you should read what you link because all you did was confirm what I wrote, additionally it stated angels are different than djinn so it even took that away from you.
You are as always twisting the words , and chooosing only that poart which you like:) its called cheating my friend in debate:)

However, in the link its clearly mentio the concept is same in all 3 Major relgiongs, think you have;;nt read, just find your thing of interest:) For your ease, I made it bold.

Satan
From New World Encyclopedia

Gustave Doré's depiction of Satan from John Milton's Paradise LostSatan (meaning "accuser") represents the arch enemy of God in the Abrahamic religions, who personifies evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver that leads humanity astray. The term is often applied to an angel who fell out of favor with God, seducing humanity into the ways of sin, and who now rules over the fallen world.

The concept of an anthropomorpized demonic figure (or archetype) is a salient theme in both ancient and modern religions, which ascribe to an ongoing cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil (stark examples are Manichaeism and Zurvanism). In the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Satan represents the personalized power of evil, who, it is said, will be ultimately defeated by the love of God.
In popular culture, the term Satan has many synonyms including the Devil, Lucifer, and the Prince of Darkness, among others.In popular culture, the term Satan has many synonyms including the Devil, Lucifer, and the Prince of Darkness, among others.

It seems that you debate here only for winning purpose, however my eim is to provide truth, and correct evidences. I dont care for wining or loosing debate, its not my purpose.

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Post #65

Post by TrueReligion »

Wyvern wrote:
Now the physical evidence of Jinns and Satan, As its a known fact , that the Satan is from Jinns, and its un-seen creature, from fire with no smokke.
Wow, a fire that isn't just smokeless but it's invisable as well. Fires are kinda bright and hot aren't they? As your encyclopedia article stated only in islam is Satan a djinn and as such it is neither a well known or well accepted "fact"


If a normal person will ask you, show me the signals of radio, waves transmission, physiicaly, how can you show him
?
I'd turn on a radio, or if thats not good enough for you any body of water would work also.
How can you show any person DNA? or protein , how they look like? How you can show the signals our parts of body are receiving from brain physicaly?
Electron microscopes and an eeg should do the trick.
So this claim of yours that you wil believe in Jinnns only physicaly, and not any personal experiennce, is useless, and not valid. Its the belief in all the religious scriptures, I can;t say for science, because many of times science changedd the claims and proofs.
Just like you disallowing any and all news sources then asking me to provide a link to prove something, I found a way to work around it and if you are right you should be able to also.
Read and do research, religious persons know this fact, but its hard to beelieve to a non-religious person:)
I did right, and provided the best source, but this source didnt suit your mind, so you dont want to believe in it as welll.No Sir, a person have to be open-hearted to accept the facts, so bee ope-heart and mind here.

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Post #66

Post by Wyvern »

TrueReligion wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
I understand djinns are arabic what I don't understand is why you keep insisting Satan is one of a class of creature that did not exist until at least a half millenia AFTER Satan was first mentioned. Christians say Satan is a fallen angel, you say Satan is a djinn, instead of insisting you are right make your case.
For your and Goat's easy reference, I quoted again a neutral and authentic site, you can check in the post, where Goat also agreed that Satan in Islam and Christianity is same. we are discussin now for Judaism, which is also mention in the link that its same, and I would like you to read it completely, before making any comment.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Satan#Islam
I read the linked site article and guess what it also says that in christianity Satan is a fallen angel and in islam Satan is a djinn. Maybe you should read what you link because all you did was confirm what I wrote, additionally it stated angels are different than djinn so it even took that away from you.
You are as always twisting the words , and chooosing only that poart which you like:) its called cheating my friend in debate:)

However, in the link its clearly mentio the concept is same in all 3 Major relgiongs, think you have;;nt read, just find your thing of interest:) For your ease, I made it bold.

Satan
From New World Encyclopedia

Gustave Doré's depiction of Satan from John Milton's Paradise LostSatan (meaning "accuser") represents the arch enemy of God in the Abrahamic religions, who personifies evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver that leads humanity astray. The term is often applied to an angel who fell out of favor with God, seducing humanity into the ways of sin, and who now rules over the fallen world.

The concept of an anthropomorpized demonic figure (or archetype) is a salient theme in both ancient and modern religions, which ascribe to an ongoing cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil (stark examples are Manichaeism and Zurvanism). In the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Satan represents the personalized power of evil, who, it is said, will be ultimately defeated by the love of God.
In popular culture, the term Satan has many synonyms including the Devil, Lucifer, and the Prince of Darkness, among others.In popular culture, the term Satan has many synonyms including the Devil, Lucifer, and the Prince of Darkness, among others.

It seems that you debate here only for winning purpose, however my eim is to provide truth, and correct evidences. I dont care for wining or loosing debate, its not my purpose.
Hmm, your article states that Satan is a personification of evil who is called many names in all three religions however it does not say that Satan is a djinn which is what you have been saying. In fact your very article states the name Satan is usually given to a fallen angel not a djinn. So stop with the ad hominem attacks and find something that states that Satan is a djinn in all three religions, otherwise all you have is a localized variation of a previous religious concept. Maybe you don't recognize a difference between angels and djinn, the koran has both so you should be familiar with the concepts but every article you cite so far has said Satan is a fallen angel.

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Post #67

Post by TrueReligion »

Wyvern wrote:
TrueReligion wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
I understand djinns are arabic what I don't understand is why you keep insisting Satan is one of a class of creature that did not exist until at least a half millenia AFTER Satan was first mentioned. Christians say Satan is a fallen angel, you say Satan is a djinn, instead of insisting you are right make your case.
For your and Goat's easy reference, I quoted again a neutral and authentic site, you can check in the post, where Goat also agreed that Satan in Islam and Christianity is same. we are discussin now for Judaism, which is also mention in the link that its same, and I would like you to read it completely, before making any comment.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Satan#Islam
I read the linked site article and guess what it also says that in christianity Satan is a fallen angel and in islam Satan is a djinn. Maybe you should read what you link because all you did was confirm what I wrote, additionally it stated angels are different than djinn so it even took that away from you.
You are as always twisting the words , and chooosing only that poart which you like:) its called cheating my friend in debate:)

However, in the link its clearly mentio the concept is same in all 3 Major relgiongs, think you have;;nt read, just find your thing of interest:) For your ease, I made it bold.

Satan
From New World Encyclopedia

Gustave Doré's depiction of Satan from John Milton's Paradise LostSatan (meaning "accuser") represents the arch enemy of God in the Abrahamic religions, who personifies evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver that leads humanity astray. The term is often applied to an angel who fell out of favor with God, seducing humanity into the ways of sin, and who now rules over the fallen world.

The concept of an anthropomorpized demonic figure (or archetype) is a salient theme in both ancient and modern religions, which ascribe to an ongoing cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil (stark examples are Manichaeism and Zurvanism). In the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Satan represents the personalized power of evil, who, it is said, will be ultimately defeated by the love of God.
In popular culture, the term Satan has many synonyms including the Devil, Lucifer, and the Prince of Darkness, among others.In popular culture, the term Satan has many synonyms including the Devil, Lucifer, and the Prince of Darkness, among others.

It seems that you debate here only for winning purpose, however my eim is to provide truth, and correct evidences. I dont care for wining or loosing debate, its not my purpose.
Hmm, your article states that Satan is a personification of evil who is called many names in all three religions however it does not say that Satan is a djinn which is what you have been saying. In fact your very article states the name Satan is usually given to a fallen angel not a djinn. So stop with the ad hominem attacks and find something that states that Satan is a djinn in all three religions, otherwise all you have is a localized variation of a previous religious concept. Maybe you don't recognize a difference between angels and djinn, the koran has both so you should be familiar with the concepts but every article you cite so far has said Satan is a fallen angel.
I'm now pretty sure that you have lack of understannding religions.
Thats why I said better ask in your area, or do plenty of research for religions, and get to know about Satan. If you are looking for Satan as Jinn in Judaism and christianity, you are on wrong lane, Jinn is arabic term, and ofcourse you can;t find it there..
Now if even reading the article, where its clearly writen SATAN is same in abrahamic religions, you are still persisting that its not. so means you are not ready to accept any kind of authentic source, which is going against your will and mind.

http://www.experiencefestival.com/exorc ... in_judaism

If you say that Satan does'nt have free will in Judaism and christianity, you are wrong again, because in many part of Judaism and christianity, its stated as well.
The temptation which SATAN gave Adam and Eve, does;nt show free will of Satan to you?

Therefore its no use of arguing and debating. Ive proved through authentic sources, my work is done.
Thanks and take care
Last edited by TrueReligion on Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #68

Post by Wyvern »

TrueReligion wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
Now the physical evidence of Jinns and Satan, As its a known fact , that the Satan is from Jinns, and its un-seen creature, from fire with no smokke.
Wow, a fire that isn't just smokeless but it's invisable as well. Fires are kinda bright and hot aren't they? As your encyclopedia article stated only in islam is Satan a djinn and as such it is neither a well known or well accepted "fact"


If a normal person will ask you, show me the signals of radio, waves transmission, physiicaly, how can you show him
?
I'd turn on a radio, or if thats not good enough for you any body of water would work also.
How can you show any person DNA? or protein , how they look like? How you can show the signals our parts of body are receiving from brain physicaly?
Electron microscopes and an eeg should do the trick.
So this claim of yours that you wil believe in Jinnns only physicaly, and not any personal experiennce, is useless, and not valid. Its the belief in all the religious scriptures, I can;t say for science, because many of times science changedd the claims and proofs.
Just like you disallowing any and all news sources then asking me to provide a link to prove something, I found a way to work around it and if you are right you should be able to also.
Read and do research, religious persons know this fact, but its hard to beelieve to a non-religious person:)
I did right, and provided the best source, but this source didnt suit your mind, so you dont want to believe in it as welll.No Sir, a person have to be open-hearted to accept the facts, so bee ope-heart and mind here.
You claim the existance of djinns are a fact, fine give us proof not just your claims. So you expect me to accept that invisible creatures made of fire and yet do not emit any heat or smoke in fact they appear to be completely undetectable by any means that are available to us. Why don't you believe in the flying spaghetti monster? People claim it exists and it is every bit as detectable as your djinns. Everybody with a religious claim expects us to simply believe them, but with so many competing claims there has to be a way for us to sift through them to get to the truth. Asking for evidence seems to me to be a good first step.

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Post #69

Post by Wyvern »

I'm now pretty sure that you have lack of understannding religions.
Thats why I said better ask in your area, or do plenty of research for religions, and get to know about Satan. If you are looking for Satan as Jinn in Judaism and christianity, you are on wrong lane, Jinn is arabic term, and ofcourse you can;t find it there..
Now if even reading the article, where its clearly writen SATAN is same in abrahamic religions, you are still persisting that its not. so means you are not ready to accept any kind of authentic source, which is going against your will and mind.

http://www.experiencefestival.com/exorc ... in_judaism

If you say that Satan does'nt have free will in Judaism and christianity, you are wrong again, because in many part of Judaism and christianity, its stated as well.
The temptation which SATAN gave Adam and Eve, does;nt show free will of Satan to you?

Therefore its no use of arguing and debating. Ive proved through authentic sources, my work is done.
Thanks and take care
No sorry, your articles simply are not saying what you want them to say. Islam has both djinn and angels and yes the article did say that Satan is the same concept but you ignore that the article also says Satan is a fallen angel. Are you now going to say angels and djinn are the same even though islam states otherwise? Satan is the same in all three religions and god also is the same in all three religions, however the argument you have been putting forth is that Satan is a djinn and every article you have used has said Satan is a former angel. If you think I've been arguing that the concept of Satan is different in the three religions you obviously have either not been paying attention or you need to increase your comprehension of english or both.
Satan is simply the personification of evil but the class of entity it is is that of an angel, not a djinn.

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Post #70

Post by TrueReligion »

Wyvern wrote:
TrueReligion wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
Now the physical evidence of Jinns and Satan, As its a known fact , that the Satan is from Jinns, and its un-seen creature, from fire with no smokke.
Wow, a fire that isn't just smokeless but it's invisable as well. Fires are kinda bright and hot aren't they? As your encyclopedia article stated only in islam is Satan a djinn and as such it is neither a well known or well accepted "fact"


If a normal person will ask you, show me the signals of radio, waves transmission, physiicaly, how can you show him
?
I'd turn on a radio, or if thats not good enough for you any body of water would work also.
How can you show any person DNA? or protein , how they look like? How you can show the signals our parts of body are receiving from brain physicaly?
Electron microscopes and an eeg should do the trick.
So this claim of yours that you wil believe in Jinnns only physicaly, and not any personal experiennce, is useless, and not valid. Its the belief in all the religious scriptures, I can;t say for science, because many of times science changedd the claims and proofs.
Just like you disallowing any and all news sources then asking me to provide a link to prove something, I found a way to work around it and if you are right you should be able to also.
Read and do research, religious persons know this fact, but its hard to beelieve to a non-religious person:)
I did right, and provided the best source, but this source didnt suit your mind, so you dont want to believe in it as welll.No Sir, a person have to be open-hearted to accept the facts, so bee ope-heart and mind here.
You claim the existance of djinns are a fact, fine give us proof not just your claims. So you expect me to accept that invisible creatures made of fire and yet do not emit any heat or smoke in fact they appear to be completely undetectable by any means that are available to us. Why don't you believe in the flying spaghetti monster? People claim it exists and it is every bit as detectable as your djinns. Everybody with a religious claim expects us to simply believe them, but with so many competing claims there has to be a way for us to sift through them to get to the truth. Asking for evidence seems to me to be a good first step.
Your imagination of Jinnn is something else, you seems to be believing in Jinns like Aladin, and flying carpet sort of thing,

You think its only in Quran who say that Jinns and angels are made of smokeless fire?? Read the Bible..

And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. (Hebrews 1:7)

Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: (Psalms 104:4)

Its not like this. flying monster or alien object, is funny comic nothing else, star wars etc,are just kids game, which adults love to see, and its west who is spending millions of dollars in these mvies and sort of things, y these things never been seen in other parts of world?
Where as possesion of human body by other creature has been ovbserved throughout ages. and they call it with different names, in Arabic name, this is called as Jinns.
For your clafication, I willl provide you some more links to study, as you canlt get enough with the links.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/satan.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/a ... buttal.htm

You can tell a layman by showing radio is working, but he wants to see the waves, signals physicaly, how you can show them?

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