Is Islam A Front For Hatred?

[JoeyKnothead]

Is Islam just a front for hate?

I have seen, as with many theists, posts which quote mine the Koran, and I thought I would ask about the following quotes.

The question for this debate, Is Islam really just another front for religious hatred, If not, why not?

I submit the following to support my position that it is a hate based, intollerant religion:

Qur'an:9:5
"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:29
"Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:325
"Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an:8:39
"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39
"So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:324
"He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"

Ishaq:587
"Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65
"O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"

Qur'an:9:123
"Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

Tabari IX:69
"Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Qur'an:47:4
"When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

[Goat]

umair wrote:

well , islam dosent preach hatred, nor killing of innocents, nor subjugation of women, nor any other accusition , which is being claimed here.

Did you even read the parts of the Koran I placed in my OP?

To just say, nah-ah, is not proof.

i have seen many such out of context verses of the quran, which people put up, without understanding their true meaning.plz,the translation of the quran should always be read along with its explanation, so that we may be able to know the true context of the verses.

I can read dude, I read pretty well. You wish to reconfigure what is clearly stated, and I'm calling you on it. Do you deny that what I have quoted is correct? Or are you saying these things actually mean the opposite? You're trying to have it both ways - quotes which seem cool, and are great ideas are true, but quotes that don't have been mistaken. How are these quotes to be understood then? Hang on, lemme grab my beer...

Ok, go.

I will partially back up Umair on this one. What is the context of the quotes? I have seen the out of context quote game pulled on the Talmud, and the old testament. I have also seen out and out forgeries commented in the Talmud.

For example, an islamic explaination of how Quran 9.5 is taken out of context is
posted at http://www.astudyofquran.org/web/index. ... ,0,0,1,0,0

That explaination seems reasonable to me.

I would not be surprised to find other similar explainations for the rest.

[JoeyKnothead]

Ishaq:587
"Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

How is this quote taken out of context? How am I misinterpreting it to be a hateful message? How does this passage say, "Hey ya know what, you believe whatever, I'm gonna respect your rights." How does this passage say that by showing you peace and love, we will convert you to Islam?

I brought this topic up specifically because the religious folk around here love to quote the passages which support their beliefs. But when confronted with opposing passages, they say in their best Foghorn Leghorn voice, "No, no, no, that's not what it means boy, you're takin' it, I say you're takin' it all outta context". But when the passage goes their way then its, "See, its here in black and white, why can't you accept it?"

I'm tired of being equated with demons, and hatred, and lack of respect for other's religion, while they condemn me, and my fellow forum members. This is especially true of the Islamic posters on this board. If you don't believe Islam you're the Devil? This is written in the Koran? Either they believe their book, or they don't. Either their book would have me treated in a most disturbing, and hateful way, or it won't.

Now, let's debate, are these words found in the Koran?
Are the people who wrote these words to be believed?
How do these words prove this to be a loving, caring religion?

[Goat]

Ishaq:587
"Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

How is this quote taken out of context? How am I misinterpreting it to be a hateful message? How does this passage say, "Hey ya know what, you believe whatever, I'm gonna respect your rights." How does this passage say that by showing you peace and love, we will convert you to Islam?

I brought this topic up specifically because the religious folk around here love to quote the passages which support their beliefs. But when confronted with opposing passages, they say in their best Foghorn Leghorn voice, "No, no, no, that's not what it means boy, you're takin' it, I say you're takin' it all outta context". But when the passage goes their way then its, "See, its here in black and white, why can't you accept it?"

I'm tired of being equated with demons, and hatred, and lack of respect for other's religion, while they condemn me, and my fellow forum members. This is especially true of the Islamic posters on this board. If you don't believe Islam you're the Devil? This is written in the Koran? Either they believe their book, or they don't. Either their book would have me treated in a most disturbing, and hateful way, or it won't.

Now, let's debate, are these words found in the Koran?
Are the people who wrote these words to be believed?
How do these words prove this to be a loving, caring religion?

I don't know. I don't know the context. Can you supply the 3 previous verses, and the 3 verses after wards?

[umair]

Qur'an:9:5
"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

well here are the verses in context with the whole story:

(9:1) This is a declaration of immunity (from obligationsby Allah and His Messenger to those mushriks with whom you had made treaties:

(9:2) "You are free to move about in the land for four months more: but you should know that you cannot frustrate the Will of Allah, and that Allah will degrade the rejecters of the Truth."

(9:3) This is a public proclamation from Allah and His Messenger for all the people on the Day of Great Haj: Allah is free from the treaty obligations made with the mushriks and so is His Messenger. If, therefore, you repent now, it is better for you but if you turn away, you should know it well that you cannot frustrate (the Will ofAllah. And, O Prophet, give the good news of a painful chastisement to the rejecters

(9:4) excepting those mushriks with whom you made treaties. and who afterwards did not violate these in the least nor did they give help to anyone against you; so you also should observe the treaties with such people in accordance with their terms, for Allah loves the pious people.

(9:5) Then, when the months made unlawful *6 for fighting expire, kill the mushriks wherever you find them, and seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and establish Salat and pay the Zakat dues, then let them go their way: *7 for Allah is Forgiving and Compassionate.

(9:6) And if any of the mushriks requests you for protection so that he may come to you (to hear the Word of Allah), give him protection till he hears the Word of Allah; then convey him. to the place of his safety: this should be done because these people do not know the Truth
(9:7) How shall a treaty with these mushriks be regarded as abiding by Allah and His Messenger? -excepting those with whom you made a treaty at the Masjid-i-Haram: *9 so long as they behave rightly with you, you also should behave rightly with them, for Allah loves the righteous people.

(9:8) But how can a treaty be regarded as abiding with the other mushriks? Since if they get power over you, they will not respect ties of kindred with you nor honour any treaty obligations. They try to conciliate you with their tongues, while their hearts are averse to their tongues, *10 for most of them are evil-doers.

(9:9) They bartered away Allah's revelations for paltry worldly gains *12 and then debarred others from His Way: *13 indeed very evil were the deeds they did.

(9:10) They do not observe the ties of kindred in regard to the Believers nor observe the obligations of treaty, and it is they who have always been the transgressors:



( a brief explanation:

the prophet had made a peace treaty with the non believers of mecca,known as the (sulauh hudaibiyah).

but the people of mecca broke that treaty and attacked a muslim clan, after which the prophet with his army entered mecca, without any bloodshed and gained power, it was after that, the surah was revealed,

in which those non-believers who broke the treaty are being given four months time , to either turn to islam, or leave the city, because they could no more be trusted,
but alongside those who kept with the treaty are offered compassion and protection as allah (swt) loves those who are pious.)



so unlike this all the other verses also need to be understood in context please.

[JoeyKnothead]

umair wrote:

(9:1) This is a declaration of immunity (from obligationsby Allah and His Messenger to those mushriks with whom you had made treaties:

--I've made no treaties with Allah or His Messenger.

(9:2) "You are free to move about in the land for four months more: but you should know that you cannot frustrate the Will of Allah, and that Allah will degrade the rejecters of the Truth."

--Do I have four months to live? Convert? What happens at the end of these four months, I wonder? Degrade? How, am I gonna go bald? Are my teeth gonna start hurting? Tell me, what is this 'degrade' you speak of?

(9:3) This is a public proclamation from Allah and His Messenger for all the people on the Day of Great Haj: Allah is free from the treaty obligations made with the mushriks and so is His Messenger. If, therefore, you repent now, it is better for you but if you turn away, you should know it well that you cannot frustrate (the Will ofAllah. And, O Prophet, give the good news of a painful chastisement to the rejecters

--I guess after all that degrading back there in 9:2 I'll be looking forward to my 'painful chastisement'. Caaaaan you feeeeeeel the looooove tonight?

(9:4) excepting those mushriks with whom you made treaties. and who afterwards did not violate these in the least nor did they give help to anyone against you; so you also should observe the treaties with such people in accordance with their terms, for Allah loves the pious people.

--I think if I survived all that 9:2-3 stuff I might be getting out of this after all.

(9:5) Then, when the months made unlawful *6 for fighting expire, kill the mushriks wherever you find them, and seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and establish Salat and pay the Zakat dues, then let them go their way: *7 for Allah is Forgiving and Compassionate.

--Now dangit, I went through all that other degrading and what not and I end up dead anyway.

--Now let's assume I'm a reincarnating religion, and I get reincarnated, what else does this loving God say?

(9:6) And if any of the mushriks requests you for protection so that he may come to you (to hear the Word of Allah), give him protection till he hears the Word of Allah; then convey him. to the place of his safety: this should be done because these people do not know the Truth

--I don't want your protection, that didn't work out so great, how 'bout some protection from you?

(9:7) How shall a treaty with these mushriks be regarded as abiding by Allah and His Messenger? -excepting those with whom you made a treaty at the Masjid-i-Haram: *9 so long as they behave rightly with you, you also should behave rightly with them, for Allah loves the righteous people.

--Behave rightly with you? ?By praying your prayers? If you tell me it is anything other than this I will go find a puppy, and I will poke him with a stick.

(9:8) But how can a treaty be regarded as abiding with the other mushriks? Since if they get power over you, they will not respect ties of kindred with you nor honour any treaty obligations. They try to conciliate you with their tongues, while their hearts are averse to their tongues, *10 for most of them are evil-doers.

--I know poking puppys with sticks is evil, and I feel bad, but c'mon. Yet again those who disagree are considered evil-doers, with no proof, no nothing to back it up.

(9:9) They bartered away Allah's revelations for paltry worldly gains *12 and then debarred others from His Way: *13 indeed very evil were the deeds they did.

--All I did was deny a sky daddy, and poke a puppy with a stick. And I have never, ever tried to keep someone from praying. But yet again I'm evil by deeds which are not explained, nor confirmed.

Your explanation is all well and good, but you continue to sugar-coat some vile, heinous, horrid, hateful acts.

And what do you say at the end?

No, no, no boy, ya' got it all wrong. You're taking it, I say you're taking it all out of context.

The problem with these passages is those who believe it are going to use them to do these very things to other human beings who disagree with them. If you try to tell me they won't, the puppy gets it again. To deny this book is the basis of Islamic law is both wrong, and wrong.

But I'm evil, I'm Satan, I'm an infidel because I don't go in for this. I'm evil because I want people to love and respect one another regardless of their beliefs.

:censored:

[PC1]

To quote a guy from this page, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=muslim

============================================

Follower of Islam (meaning submission to Allah).

I will start you off with a handful of quotes from the Qur'an. I can go on for pages but there isn't the space here. I will ignore the Hadiths (with such wonderful quotes as "If a woman's conduct is mischievous or immodest, the husband has the right to beat her up but must not break her bones" TR. P 439) and will stick to the divine infallible word of Allah through Prophet Mohammed.

Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers. 5:51

Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. 48:29

Those who resist Allah and his messenger will be humbled to dust. 58:5

As for those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the heirs of Hell. 5:10

...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: Allah will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them... 9:12

Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate. 9:73

Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and Allah's religion shall reign supreme. 8:36

Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. 9:121

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued. 9:29

It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith Islam to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters may dislike it. 9:31

Allah revealed His will to the angels, saying: 'I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!'

When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens. 47:4

The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful. 5:33-34

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 9:5

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred stedfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. 98:1-8

The Jews call 'Uzayr-a son of God', and the Christians call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are decluded away from the Truth. 9:30

The curse of Allah is on the unbelievers... humiliating is the punishment. 2:89-90

..The unbelievers shall endure forever the torment of Hell. The punishment will never be lightened, and they shall be speechless with despair. 43:74

For the unbelievers We have prepared chains and fetters and a blazing Fire... 76:1-5

O you who believe! When you encounter in battle those who unbelieve as opposing forces, do not turn your backs to them in flight. For whoever turns his back on them on such an occasion – except that it be for tactical reasons such as withdrawing to fight again or joining another troop of believers or taking up a position against another enemy host – has indeed incurred Allah’s severe punishment, and his final refuge is the Fire; how evil a homecoming and a destination to arrive in. 8:15-16

Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially. 4:3

Men take authority over women... As for those who are disobedient, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. 4:34

======================================

Sheesh. What's so bad about the unbelievers?

[umair]

umair wrote:

(9:1) This is a declaration of immunity (from obligationsby Allah and His Messenger to those mushriks with whom you had made treaties:

--I've made no treaties with Allah or His Messenger.

(9:2) "You are free to move about in the land for four months more: but you should know that you cannot frustrate the Will of Allah, and that Allah will degrade the rejecters of the Truth."

--Do I have four months to live? Convert? What happens at the end of these four months, I wonder? Degrade? How, am I gonna go bald? Are my teeth gonna start hurting? Tell me, what is this 'degrade' you speak of?

(9:3) This is a public proclamation from Allah and His Messenger for all the people on the Day of Great Haj: Allah is free from the treaty obligations made with the mushriks and so is His Messenger. If, therefore, you repent now, it is better for you but if you turn away, you should know it well that you cannot frustrate (the Will ofAllah. And, O Prophet, give the good news of a painful chastisement to the rejecters

--I guess after all that degrading back there in 9:2 I'll be looking forward to my 'painful chastisement'. Caaaaan you feeeeeeel the looooove tonight?

(9:4) excepting those mushriks with whom you made treaties. and who afterwards did not violate these in the least nor did they give help to anyone against you; so you also should observe the treaties with such people in accordance with their terms, for Allah loves the pious people.

--I think if I survived all that 9:2-3 stuff I might be getting out of this after all.

(9:5) Then, when the months made unlawful *6 for fighting expire, kill the mushriks wherever you find them, and seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and establish Salat and pay the Zakat dues, then let them go their way: *7 for Allah is Forgiving and Compassionate.

--Now dangit, I went through all that other degrading and what not and I end up dead anyway.

--Now let's assume I'm a reincarnating religion, and I get reincarnated, what else does this loving God say?

(9:6) And if any of the mushriks requests you for protection so that he may come to you (to hear the Word of Allah), give him protection till he hears the Word of Allah; then convey him. to the place of his safety: this should be done because these people do not know the Truth

--I don't want your protection, that didn't work out so great, how 'bout some protection from you?

(9:7) How shall a treaty with these mushriks be regarded as abiding by Allah and His Messenger? -excepting those with whom you made a treaty at the Masjid-i-Haram: *9 so long as they behave rightly with you, you also should behave rightly with them, for Allah loves the righteous people.

--Behave rightly with you? ?By praying your prayers? If you tell me it is anything other than this I will go find a puppy, and I will poke him with a stick.

(9:8) But how can a treaty be regarded as abiding with the other mushriks? Since if they get power over you, they will not respect ties of kindred with you nor honour any treaty obligations. They try to conciliate you with their tongues, while their hearts are averse to their tongues, *10 for most of them are evil-doers.

--I know poking puppys with sticks is evil, and I feel bad, but c'mon. Yet again those who disagree are considered evil-doers, with no proof, no nothing to back it up.

(9:9) They bartered away Allah's revelations for paltry worldly gains *12 and then debarred others from His Way: *13 indeed very evil were the deeds they did.

--All I did was deny a sky daddy, and poke a puppy with a stick. And I have never, ever tried to keep someone from praying. But yet again I'm evil by deeds which are not explained, nor confirmed.

Your explanation is all well and good, but you continue to sugar-coat some vile, heinous, horrid, hateful acts.

And what do you say at the end?

No, no, no boy, ya' got it all wrong. You're taking it, I say you're taking it all out of context.

The problem with these passages is those who believe it are going to use them to do these very things to other human beings who disagree with them. If you try to tell me they won't, the puppy gets it again. To deny this book is the basis of Islamic law is both wrong, and wrong.

But I'm evil, I'm Satan, I'm an infidel because I don't go in for this. I'm evil because I want people to love and respect one another regardless of their beliefs.

:censored:

well you have done such a tidious work, which ofcourse i appreciate,

but what i was thinking is that you dont know that , those verses are telling us of an event which had occured, just so that we may take lessons from them, for our future.

and although i am not a scholar on quran , but still i can derive that those lessons might be:

allah dosent like those who violate treaties, or are treacherous(whether muslims or non-muslims), and at the same time he loves those who are pious and good in deeds(whether muslims or non muslims)

now it is up yo you that in which direction do you want your mind to be inflicted.

[JoeyKnothead]

This business of quote mining is a common (among most theists) tactic, and I'm gonna call you on it every time you try. This tactic shows so well how the majority of theists do not, will not, and can not look at all the evidence. This is especially egregious in light of recent "examine all the evidence" debates regarding evo/id in our schools and legislatures.

By picking and choosing those passages which support your position, and disregarding those that don't leads me to believe you have come to an invalid, unjustified, unverifiable position. This then leads me to think your reasons and proofs for your religion are faulty, illogical, and not worthy of serious consideration.

If we are to accept one passage, because it is >insert one or more of history's gods< word, then all of it is. Either your reference book is accurate, or its not. And if one passage has been misinterpreted, then who has the authority to say which? Which passage is the inerrant, unquestionable, unmistakeable word of God? And who is so intelligent, so discerning, so brilliant of mind that they can give us this revelation? Certainly not the priesthood, so riddled with molesters, and embezzlers, and con men. This is exactly why I think the evidence points to religion as being a human construct, devoid of all godly or otherworldy influence.

Your passages of peace and love prove to me you are not the 'one true whatever' because my passages of hate, taken from our one shared text tell me you are wrong, wicked, evil, and not worthy of MY one true interpretation. And how dare you tell me I'm wrong, because right here it says >insert particular, contradictory passage<. Do you not see how silly this looks?

One day someone wakes up and creates the Jewish idea of religion, the next day someone wakes up and says no, they're wrong, here's the new & improved version, and I'll be danged if along comes some other guy who says idiots and infidels, I have the one true way (and reading other threads, we might hafta add another feller into the mix). In all of this we see the - work with me here - evolution - of 1 religion into how many I don't have the fingers and toes to count. And in all of this each new religion hates the previous one, increasing in degree of hate the further back it goes, the closer it gets to the original religion in the first danged place! This is why the Jews are so hated, and hated more, by each succession of religion that follows them. And yet they are among the most peace loving, and tolerant of all the religions, and arguably moreso than the religions, based on the Jewish religion, which follow!

Can we not love one another, and respect each other for the sheer fact we are all human beings? It is all fine and well, and even admirable to say that this or that from my book tells us to love each other. But when that very book also condemns, and calls on us to hate each other I say we gotta write yet another. And for the sake of humanity, let's get this one right. I know, let's say it is encumbent upon us all to love one another regardless of what we believe.

The Muslim religion in particular seems to be so adept at saying Allah says to take over the world, but don't let anyone know that's our true goal. I know it says so right here in this book, but try to distract everyone with the passages that claim we're all cool with everybody. I know, hey look, a bunny...

If I may paraphrase Jaime Foxx:

I'm not saying you are a hypocrite, I'm saying its hypocrite-ish
I'm not saying you are a quote miner, I'm saying its quote mine-ish
I'm not saying you are dishonestly representing your position, I'm saying its dishonest-ish

See where I'm going with this?

No, no, no son, you got it all wrong. You're takin' it, I say you're takin' it all outta context.

[JoeyKnothead]

Hey y'all, since Bigmo would rather have this debate in his thread, would y'all mind terribly to monitor the two? Or maybe we should all just pack up and head over there now? I'd sure 'preciate it.

For some reason the quote mines have more power in his thread I reckon.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=8356

It's obvious he would rather try to run a counter thread than to enter this one for debate.

Bigmo, your thread is an obvious attempt to draw attention away from mine, but I ain't mad at ya.

[Goat]

Hey y'all, since Bigmo would rather have this debate in his thread, would y'all mind terribly to monitor the two? Or maybe we should all just pack up and head over there now? I'd sure 'preciate it.

For some reason the quote mines have more power in his thread I reckon.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=8356

It's obvious he would rather try to run a counter thread than to enter this one for debate.

Bigmo, your thread is an obvious attempt to draw attention away from mine, but I ain't mad at ya.

You should know better,.. I don't see that capacity in Bigmo.