The Koran on freedom of religion and faith

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Bigmo
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The Koran on freedom of religion and faith

Post #1

Post by Bigmo »

What does the Koran orders the prophet to do and how to behave:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

21:107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."

22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.

36:16 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!

"So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6:113-114

"And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 6:68

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Post #2

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Bigmo
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Re: The Koran on freedom of religion and faith

Post #3

Post by Bigmo »

Bigmo wrote:What does the Koran orders the prophet to do and how to behave:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

21:107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."

22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.

36:16 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!

"So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6:113-114

"And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 6:68
So you could not answer. Typical.

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

9.7. How can there be a league, before God and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous.


9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

Its funny how the victim became the victimiser. Typical ain't it.

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Post #4

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Since you don't wish to discuss this in the thread I started...And since you think I am somehow unwilling to debate you...And since you feel the need to have two threads discussing the same core issue...And since it all boils down to quote mining...

Don't you fret nary a bit, I'll cut and paste it for ya...

Is Islam just a front for hate?

I have seen, as with many theists, posts which quote mine the Koran, and I thought I would ask about the following quotes.

The question for this debate, Is Islam really just another front for religious hatred, If not, why not?

I submit the following to support my position that it is a hate based, intollerant religion:

Qur'an:9:5
"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:29
"Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:325
"Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an:8:39
"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39
"So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:324
"He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"

Ishaq:587
"Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65
"O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"

Qur'an:9:123
"Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

Tabari IX:69
"Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Qur'an:47:4
"When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."


I have a better understanding of what you've been about in these posts, but I wholly reject the notion that someone is Satan, and I still say it comes from a hateful perspective.

Firstly I reject it because there ain't no Satan. I've got Islamists on these forums calling me Satan because I'm an atheist, I've got Christians emailing me calling Barak Obama Satan because they think he's Muslim, and somewhere in the middle they all call the Jews Satan. Its just too danged hard to keep up with who's Satan this week.

Most importantly, how many times have we seen religious folk declare something 'Satan' simply because they don't understand it? The demonizing and Hitlerizing of our enemies, or what we don't like has got to stop if we are to live peacefully with one another.

Evil as a concept does exist, but not like Islam, and most other religions would have us believe. If I must kill, and torture, and maim and harass my fellow man in order to follow any religion, then I want none of it, and I declare that religion violent and hateful.

History is full of religions that would have you murder and torture, and terrorize others in order to further its aims of oppressing just as many as possible under the thumb of ideas which have no basis in reality, nor in humanity.

Islam especially seems to breed a brand of hate that is unrelenting, unforgiving, and uncaring. In the name of Islam we are seeing an entire race of people come under atttack, all in the name of some dude whose murderous lust would have all free thinking people destroyed. This particular brand of religion is fast becoming a plague on all of humanity. Unless Islam is stopped, its spread will darken the entire of the human race.

Read the posts within these forums from Islamists, if they are the words of Islam, they should prove to you the oppression of women, the murderous intent, and the downright scary ideas Islam plants in the heads of people.

Did you even read the parts of the Koran I placed in my OP?

To just say, nah-ah, is not proof.

How is this quote taken out of context? How am I misinterpreting it to be a hateful message? How does this passage say, "Hey ya know what, you believe whatever, I'm gonna respect your rights." How does this passage say that by showing you peace and love, we will convert you to Islam?

I brought this topic up specifically because the religious folk around here love to quote the passages which support their beliefs. But when confronted with opposing passages, they say in their best Foghorn Leghorn voice, "No, no, no, that's not what it means boy, you're takin' it, I say you're takin' it all outta context". But when the passage goes their way then its, "See, its here in black and white, why can't you accept it?"

I'm tired of being equated with demons, and hatred, and lack of respect for other's religion, while they condemn me, and my fellow forum members. This is especially true of the Islamic posters on this board. If you don't believe Islam you're the Devil? This is written in the Koran? Either they believe their book, or they don't. Either their book would have me treated in a most disturbing, and hateful way, or it won't.

Now, let's debate, are these words found in the Koran?
Are the people who wrote these words to be believed?
How do these words prove this to be a loving, caring religion?

‬umair wrote:

(9:1) This is a declaration of immunity (from obligationsby Allah and His Messenger to those mushriks with whom you had made treaties:

--I've made no treaties with Allah or His Messenger.

(9:2) "You are free to move about in the land for four months more: but you should know that you cannot frustrate the Will of Allah, and that Allah will degrade the rejecters of the Truth."

--Do I have four months to live? Convert? What happens at the end of these four months, I wonder? Degrade? How, am I gonna go bald? Are my teeth gonna start hurting? Tell me, what is this 'degrade' you speak of?

(9:3) This is a public proclamation from Allah and His Messenger for all the people on the Day of Great Haj: Allah is free from the treaty obligations made with the mushriks and so is His Messenger. If, therefore, you repent now, it is better for you but if you turn away, you should know it well that you cannot frustrate (the Will ofAllah. And, O Prophet, give the good news of a painful chastisement to the rejecters

--I guess after all that degrading back there in 9:2 I'll be looking forward to my 'painful chastisement'. Caaaaan you feeeeeeel the looooove tonight?

(9:4) excepting those mushriks with whom you made treaties. and who afterwards did not violate these in the least nor did they give help to anyone against you; so you also should observe the treaties with such people in accordance with their terms, for Allah loves the pious people.

--I think if I survived all that 9:2-3 stuff I might be getting out of this after all.

(9:5) Then, when the months made unlawful *6 for fighting expire, kill the mushriks wherever you find them, and seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and establish Salat and pay the Zakat dues, then let them go their way: *7 for Allah is Forgiving and Compassionate.

--Now dangit, I went through all that other degrading and what not and I end up dead anyway.

--Now let's assume I'm a reincarnating religion, and I get reincarnated, what else does this loving God say?

(9:6) And if any of the mushriks requests you for protection so that he may come to you (to hear the Word of Allah), give him protection till he hears the Word of Allah; then convey him. to the place of his safety: this should be done because these people do not know the Truth

--I don't want your protection, that didn't work out so great, how 'bout some protection from you?

(9:7) How shall a treaty with these mushriks be regarded as abiding by Allah and His Messenger? -excepting those with whom you made a treaty at the Masjid-i-Haram: *9 so long as they behave rightly with you, you also should behave rightly with them, for Allah loves the righteous people.

--Behave rightly with you? ?By praying your prayers? If you tell me it is anything other than this I will go find a puppy, and I will poke him with a stick.

(9:8) But how can a treaty be regarded as abiding with the other mushriks? Since if they get power over you, they will not respect ties of kindred with you nor honour any treaty obligations. They try to conciliate you with their tongues, while their hearts are averse to their tongues, *10 for most of them are evil-doers.

--I know poking puppys with sticks is evil, and I feel bad, but c'mon. Yet again those who disagree are considered evil-doers, with no proof, no nothing to back it up.

(9:9) They bartered away Allah's revelations for paltry worldly gains *12 and then debarred others from His Way: *13 indeed very evil were the deeds they did.

--All I did was deny a sky daddy, and poke a puppy with a stick. And I have never, ever tried to keep someone from praying. But yet again I'm evil by deeds which are not explained, nor confirmed.

Your explanation is all well and good, but you continue to sugar-coat some vile, heinous, horrid, hateful acts.

And what do you say at the end?

No, no, no boy, ya' got it all wrong. You're taking it, I say you're taking it all out of context.

The problem with these passages is those who believe it are going to use them to do these very things to other human beings who disagree with them. If you try to tell me they won't, the puppy gets it again. To deny this book is the basis of Islamic law is both wrong, and wrong.

But I'm evil, I'm Satan, I'm an infidel because I don't go in for this. I'm evil because I want people to love and respect one another regardless of their beliefs.


This business of quote mining is a common (among most theists) tactic, and I'm gonna call you on it every time you try. This tactic shows so well how the majority of theists do not, will not, and can not look at all the evidence. This is especially egregious in light of recent "examine all the evidence" debates regarding evo/id in our schools and legislatures.

By picking and choosing those passages which support your position, and disregarding those that don't leads me to believe you have come to an invalid, unjustified, unverifiable position. This then leads me to think your reasons and proofs for your religion are faulty, illogical, and not worthy of serious consideration.

If we are to accept one passage, because it is >insert one or more of history's gods< word, then all of it is. Either your reference book is accurate, or its not. And if one passage has been misinterpreted, then who has the authority to say which? Which passage is the inerrant, unquestionable, unmistakeable word of God? And who is so intelligent, so discerning, so brilliant of mind that they can give us this revelation? Certainly not the priesthood, so riddled with molesters, and embezzlers, and con men. This is exactly why I think the evidence points to religion as being a human construct, devoid of all godly or otherworldy influence.

Your passages of peace and love prove to me you are not the 'one true whatever' because my passages of hate, taken from our one shared text tell me you are wrong, wicked, evil, and not worthy of MY one true interpretation. And how dare you tell me I'm wrong, because right here it says >insert particular, contradictory passage<. Do you not see how silly this looks?

One day someone wakes up and creates the Jewish idea of religion, the next day someone wakes up and says no, they're wrong, here's the new & improved version, and I'll be danged if along comes some other guy who says idiots and infidels, I have the one true way (and reading other threads, we might hafta add another feller into the mix). In all of this we see the - work with me here - evolution - of 1 religion into how many I don't have the fingers and toes to count. And in all of this each new religion hates the previous one, increasing in degree of hate the further back it goes, the closer it gets to the original religion in the first danged place! This is why the Jews are so hated, and hated more, by each succession of religion that follows them. And yet they are among the most peace loving, and tolerant of all the religions, and arguably moreso than the religions, based on the Jewish religion, which follow!

Can we not love one another, and respect each other for the sheer fact we are all human beings? It is all fine and well, and even admirable to say that this or that from my book tells us to love each other. But when that very book also condemns, and calls on us to hate each other I say we gotta write yet another. And for the sake of humanity, let's get this one right. I know, let's say it is encumbent upon us all to love one another regardless of what we believe.

The Muslim religion in particular seems to be so adept at saying Allah says to take over the world, but don't let anyone know that's our true goal. I know it says so right here in this book, but try to distract everyone with the passages that claim we're all cool with everybody. I know, hey look, a bunny...

If I may paraphrase Jaime Foxx:

I'm not saying you are a hypocrite, I'm saying its hypocrite-ish
I'm not saying you are a quote miner, I'm saying its quote mine-ish
I'm not saying you are dishonestly representing your position, I'm saying its dishonest-ish

See where I'm going with this?

No, no, no son, you got it all wrong. You're takin' it, I say you're takin' it all outta context.


Now you be a sweetheart and cut and paste your responses back into my thread, ok? Thanks a mil', you're too kind.

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Post #5

Post by Goat »

joeyknuccione wrote:Since you don't wish to discuss this in the thread I started...And since you think I am somehow unwilling to debate you...And since you feel the need to have two threads discussing the same core issue...And since it all boils down to quote mining...

Don't you fret nary a bit, I'll cut and paste it for ya...

Is Islam just a front for hate?

I have seen, as with many theists, posts which quote mine the Koran, and I thought I would ask about the following quotes.

The question for this debate, Is Islam really just another front for religious hatred, If not, why not?

I submit the following to support my position that it is a hate based, intollerant religion:

Qur'an:9:5
"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:29
"Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:325
"Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an:8:39
"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39
"So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:324
"He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"

Ishaq:587
"Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65
"O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"

Qur'an:9:123
"Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

Tabari IX:69
"Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Qur'an:47:4
"When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."


I have a better understanding of what you've been about in these posts, but I wholly reject the notion that someone is Satan, and I still say it comes from a hateful perspective.

Firstly I reject it because there ain't no Satan. I've got Islamists on these forums calling me Satan because I'm an atheist, I've got Christians emailing me calling Barak Obama Satan because they think he's Muslim, and somewhere in the middle they all call the Jews Satan. Its just too danged hard to keep up with who's Satan this week.

Most importantly, how many times have we seen religious folk declare something 'Satan' simply because they don't understand it? The demonizing and Hitlerizing of our enemies, or what we don't like has got to stop if we are to live peacefully with one another.

Evil as a concept does exist, but not like Islam, and most other religions would have us believe. If I must kill, and torture, and maim and harass my fellow man in order to follow any religion, then I want none of it, and I declare that religion violent and hateful.

History is full of religions that would have you murder and torture, and terrorize others in order to further its aims of oppressing just as many as possible under the thumb of ideas which have no basis in reality, nor in humanity.

Islam especially seems to breed a brand of hate that is unrelenting, unforgiving, and uncaring. In the name of Islam we are seeing an entire race of people come under atttack, all in the name of some dude whose murderous lust would have all free thinking people destroyed. This particular brand of religion is fast becoming a plague on all of humanity. Unless Islam is stopped, its spread will darken the entire of the human race.

Read the posts within these forums from Islamists, if they are the words of Islam, they should prove to you the oppression of women, the murderous intent, and the downright scary ideas Islam plants in the heads of people.

Did you even read the parts of the Koran I placed in my OP?

To just say, nah-ah, is not proof.

How is this quote taken out of context? How am I misinterpreting it to be a hateful message? How does this passage say, "Hey ya know what, you believe whatever, I'm gonna respect your rights." How does this passage say that by showing you peace and love, we will convert you to Islam?

I brought this topic up specifically because the religious folk around here love to quote the passages which support their beliefs. But when confronted with opposing passages, they say in their best Foghorn Leghorn voice, "No, no, no, that's not what it means boy, you're takin' it, I say you're takin' it all outta context". But when the passage goes their way then its, "See, its here in black and white, why can't you accept it?"

I'm tired of being equated with demons, and hatred, and lack of respect for other's religion, while they condemn me, and my fellow forum members. This is especially true of the Islamic posters on this board. If you don't believe Islam you're the Devil? This is written in the Koran? Either they believe their book, or they don't. Either their book would have me treated in a most disturbing, and hateful way, or it won't.

Now, let's debate, are these words found in the Koran?
Are the people who wrote these words to be believed?
How do these words prove this to be a loving, caring religion?

‬umair wrote:

(9:1) This is a declaration of immunity (from obligationsby Allah and His Messenger to those mushriks with whom you had made treaties:

--I've made no treaties with Allah or His Messenger.

(9:2) "You are free to move about in the land for four months more: but you should know that you cannot frustrate the Will of Allah, and that Allah will degrade the rejecters of the Truth."

--Do I have four months to live? Convert? What happens at the end of these four months, I wonder? Degrade? How, am I gonna go bald? Are my teeth gonna start hurting? Tell me, what is this 'degrade' you speak of?

(9:3) This is a public proclamation from Allah and His Messenger for all the people on the Day of Great Haj: Allah is free from the treaty obligations made with the mushriks and so is His Messenger. If, therefore, you repent now, it is better for you but if you turn away, you should know it well that you cannot frustrate (the Will ofAllah. And, O Prophet, give the good news of a painful chastisement to the rejecters

--I guess after all that degrading back there in 9:2 I'll be looking forward to my 'painful chastisement'. Caaaaan you feeeeeeel the looooove tonight?

(9:4) excepting those mushriks with whom you made treaties. and who afterwards did not violate these in the least nor did they give help to anyone against you; so you also should observe the treaties with such people in accordance with their terms, for Allah loves the pious people.

--I think if I survived all that 9:2-3 stuff I might be getting out of this after all.

(9:5) Then, when the months made unlawful *6 for fighting expire, kill the mushriks wherever you find them, and seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and establish Salat and pay the Zakat dues, then let them go their way: *7 for Allah is Forgiving and Compassionate.

--Now dangit, I went through all that other degrading and what not and I end up dead anyway.

--Now let's assume I'm a reincarnating religion, and I get reincarnated, what else does this loving God say?

(9:6) And if any of the mushriks requests you for protection so that he may come to you (to hear the Word of Allah), give him protection till he hears the Word of Allah; then convey him. to the place of his safety: this should be done because these people do not know the Truth

--I don't want your protection, that didn't work out so great, how 'bout some protection from you?

(9:7) How shall a treaty with these mushriks be regarded as abiding by Allah and His Messenger? -excepting those with whom you made a treaty at the Masjid-i-Haram: *9 so long as they behave rightly with you, you also should behave rightly with them, for Allah loves the righteous people.

--Behave rightly with you? ?By praying your prayers? If you tell me it is anything other than this I will go find a puppy, and I will poke him with a stick.

(9:8) But how can a treaty be regarded as abiding with the other mushriks? Since if they get power over you, they will not respect ties of kindred with you nor honour any treaty obligations. They try to conciliate you with their tongues, while their hearts are averse to their tongues, *10 for most of them are evil-doers.

--I know poking puppys with sticks is evil, and I feel bad, but c'mon. Yet again those who disagree are considered evil-doers, with no proof, no nothing to back it up.

(9:9) They bartered away Allah's revelations for paltry worldly gains *12 and then debarred others from His Way: *13 indeed very evil were the deeds they did.

--All I did was deny a sky daddy, and poke a puppy with a stick. And I have never, ever tried to keep someone from praying. But yet again I'm evil by deeds which are not explained, nor confirmed.

Your explanation is all well and good, but you continue to sugar-coat some vile, heinous, horrid, hateful acts.

And what do you say at the end?

No, no, no boy, ya' got it all wrong. You're taking it, I say you're taking it all out of context.

The problem with these passages is those who believe it are going to use them to do these very things to other human beings who disagree with them. If you try to tell me they won't, the puppy gets it again. To deny this book is the basis of Islamic law is both wrong, and wrong.

But I'm evil, I'm Satan, I'm an infidel because I don't go in for this. I'm evil because I want people to love and respect one another regardless of their beliefs.


This business of quote mining is a common (among most theists) tactic, and I'm gonna call you on it every time you try. This tactic shows so well how the majority of theists do not, will not, and can not look at all the evidence. This is especially egregious in light of recent "examine all the evidence" debates regarding evo/id in our schools and legislatures.

By picking and choosing those passages which support your position, and disregarding those that don't leads me to believe you have come to an invalid, unjustified, unverifiable position. This then leads me to think your reasons and proofs for your religion are faulty, illogical, and not worthy of serious consideration.

If we are to accept one passage, because it is >insert one or more of history's gods< word, then all of it is. Either your reference book is accurate, or its not. And if one passage has been misinterpreted, then who has the authority to say which? Which passage is the inerrant, unquestionable, unmistakeable word of God? And who is so intelligent, so discerning, so brilliant of mind that they can give us this revelation? Certainly not the priesthood, so riddled with molesters, and embezzlers, and con men. This is exactly why I think the evidence points to religion as being a human construct, devoid of all godly or otherworldy influence.

Your passages of peace and love prove to me you are not the 'one true whatever' because my passages of hate, taken from our one shared text tell me you are wrong, wicked, evil, and not worthy of MY one true interpretation. And how dare you tell me I'm wrong, because right here it says >insert particular, contradictory passage<. Do you not see how silly this looks?

One day someone wakes up and creates the Jewish idea of religion, the next day someone wakes up and says no, they're wrong, here's the new & improved version, and I'll be danged if along comes some other guy who says idiots and infidels, I have the one true way (and reading other threads, we might hafta add another feller into the mix). In all of this we see the - work with me here - evolution - of 1 religion into how many I don't have the fingers and toes to count. And in all of this each new religion hates the previous one, increasing in degree of hate the further back it goes, the closer it gets to the original religion in the first danged place! This is why the Jews are so hated, and hated more, by each succession of religion that follows them. And yet they are among the most peace loving, and tolerant of all the religions, and arguably moreso than the religions, based on the Jewish religion, which follow!

Can we not love one another, and respect each other for the sheer fact we are all human beings? It is all fine and well, and even admirable to say that this or that from my book tells us to love each other. But when that very book also condemns, and calls on us to hate each other I say we gotta write yet another. And for the sake of humanity, let's get this one right. I know, let's say it is encumbent upon us all to love one another regardless of what we believe.

The Muslim religion in particular seems to be so adept at saying Allah says to take over the world, but don't let anyone know that's our true goal. I know it says so right here in this book, but try to distract everyone with the passages that claim we're all cool with everybody. I know, hey look, a bunny...

If I may paraphrase Jaime Foxx:

I'm not saying you are a hypocrite, I'm saying its hypocrite-ish
I'm not saying you are a quote miner, I'm saying its quote mine-ish
I'm not saying you are dishonestly representing your position, I'm saying its dishonest-ish

See where I'm going with this?

No, no, no son, you got it all wrong. You're takin' it, I say you're takin' it all outta context.


Now you be a sweetheart and cut and paste your responses back into my thread, ok? Thanks a mil', you're too kind.

Isn't that what you are doing? Hating? At least on the first one, I showed how it was out of context. You repeated that claim. You also did not show the various passages in context.

I hate arguments by sound bites.. and that is exactly what you are doing. It appears you found a list on an anti-islamic web site, and repeated it verbatim

I certainly don't know the context or anything about the quotes. However, I know that the technique you are using is very much like some people use against the Jews and the Talmud. I don't like out of context quotes to "prove" how evil a religion is.

Now, if you point to an Islamic scholar that discusses the passages in depth, I will be more than happy to read what he said. There are enough reasons to dislike how Islam is practiced in today's world to need to go through this kind of tactics.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

Ilias Ahmad
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Post #6

Post by Ilias Ahmad »

It appears you found a list on an anti-islamic web site, and repeated it verbatim
Of course he got them from some anti-Islamic site, I bet this guy doesn't even know what Tabari or Ishaq is, yet he is quoting from those sources?!

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Post #7

Post by Ilias Ahmad »

Of course he got them from some anti-Islamic site, I bet this guy doesn't even know what Tabari or Ishaq is, yet he is quoting from those sources?!
As I suspected, he merely copy and pasted from the prophetofdoom website. He literally copied and pasted from this article

If people really want to debate they should come up with their own arguments from their own research.

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Post #8

Post by Bigmo »

Ilias Ahmad wrote:
Of course he got them from some anti-Islamic site, I bet this guy doesn't even know what Tabari or Ishaq is, yet he is quoting from those sources?!
As I suspected, he merely copy and pasted from the prophetofdoom website. He literally copied and pasted from this article

If people really want to debate they should come up with their own arguments from their own research.
He can cut and paste all he wants, but he should not cherry pick verses and ignore verses before and after it. This by the way is done with the Bible also. Many people pick the verses they like and avoid the verses they don't like. The Koran explains this habit among some Christians:

But first let me tackel the verses he quotes:

First he quotes this:

The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful. 5:33-34

Yet the verses before it and after it says this:

5.32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

He then quotes this:

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 9:5

Yet he fails to quote the verses before and after it, typical.

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

8. How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.

He then quotes this verse

Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred stedfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65

Yet a few verses before it the Koran says:

61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

He then quotes this:

Men take authority over women... As for those who are disobedient, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. 4:34

Actually the verses read like this:

34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

35. If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

This is a Sunni translation.

The verse is wrongly translated.

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because God has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely God is High, Great.

The verse after it say:

4.35. If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, God will cause their reconciliation: For God hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

The Koran does not say beat them. It says "Idribuhunna". Which means strike them. Its from the word "daraba". Which means strike. Its translated as beat them since it goes along with sectarian hadiths that justifies beating a woman lightly if she disobeys. Beat or hit is only one possible meaning of the word Dharaba. The hadiths also says the prophet pinched or poked one of his wife. Since Aisha is always reported relating hadiths like bombs falling from a B-52 it had to be her of course. These are sources Muslim sects use to translate the Koran. These hadiths emerged 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet which the sectarian clerics believe were "orally" passed down across 6 or 7 generations. It was compiled by men like Imam Bukhari or Imam Muslim or Tabri etc. between 220 to 350 after the prophet's death.

Anyways when the Koran uses Dharaba , it always explains strike what or how. Let see the Koran:

"Seest thou not how God sets (Dharaba) forth a parable? -- A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens". Quran 14:24

26.63. Then We told Moses by inspiration: "Strike(Idhrib) the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.

"O you who believe, if you attack (Darabtum) in the cause of God then make a clear declaration, and do not say to those who greet you with peace: 'You are not a believer!' You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God favoured you, so make a clear declaration. God is expert over what you do." (Quran 4:94)

"So how will it be when the Angels put them to death, striking (Yadriboona) their faces and their backs" (Quran 47:27)

"So We sealed (Darabna) upon their ears in the cave for a number of years." (Quran 18:11)

"Shall We take-away (Na'drib) the reminder from you, because you are a transgressing people?" (Quran 43:5)

"Have you not seen how God cites (Daraba) the example of a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and its branches in the sky." (Quran 14:24)

"As for the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, and they cannot leave (Darban) the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their modesty; you know them by their features, they do not ask the people repeatedly. And what you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it." (Quran 2:273)

14.25. It brings forth its fruit at all times, by the leave of its Lord. So God sets forth(Yadribu) parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition

43.58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee(Dharabuhu) , only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people

4.101. When ye travel(Dharabtum) through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

38.44. "And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith(Fa'adrib): and break not (thy oath)." Truly We found him full of patience and constancy. How excellent in Our service! ever did he turn (to Us)!

So all these verses uses the word Dharaba differently. In fact if you look at all the verses in the Koran that uses the word Dharab, we would find it used for variou meanings:

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273

To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4

To beat: 8:50; 47:27

To set up: 43:58; 57:13

To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11

To take away, to ignore: 43:5

To condemn: 2:61

To seal, to draw over: 18:11

To cover: 24:31

To explain: 13:17

Since Dharaba has different meaning in the Arabic language depending on its context.

The verse only says "strike them". Yet this is insufficient to explain it as beat them, since strike(Dharaba) can mean many thing as we saw already.

The meaning strike them as to hit them or beat them physically over mere suspicion or fear is inconsistent with the Koran. Strike them can mean strike them out of the house or stike them out of your life or whatever.

O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it . And fear God. Verily, God is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful. 49.12

O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done. 49.6

So we translate it as it is, and not how the hadiths say it should be, which is:

38.34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them , refuse to share their beds and strike them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means : For God is Most High.

If we look at the Koran, it mentions the situation when one ACCUSES a woman of ill conduct and even a spouse accuses another of ill conduct. Lets see what it say:

24.4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

24.5. Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

24.6. And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by God that they are solemnly telling the truth;

24.7. And the fifth that they solemnly invoke the curse of God on themselves if they tell a lie.

24.8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times By God, that he is telling a lie;

24.9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of God on herself if he is telling the truth.

24.10. If it were not for God's grace and mercy on you, and that God is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,-


How can then the Koran say to lay hands on someone over a mere fear or suspicion when it does not even allow it over an accusation backed by the witness of 3 people and even the witness of a spouse if the other spouse also swears by oath that its not true? So the sectarian hadith inspired translation contradicts the Koran.

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Post #9

Post by Bigmo »

Christians also have this habit as i said when it comes to the bible. The Koran notes this fact of deliberately avoiding or hiding verses and taking things out of context, especially when it comes to Jesus.

Jesus is reported to have said “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father� and “I am in the Father, and the Father in me� (John 14:9-10); but in the same passage he shortly goes on to add: “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.� (John 14:20) Again, while Jesus does proclaim “I and my Father are one� (John 10:30), he also prays for his followers, “that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.� (John 17:21) Whatever the nature of the “oneness� Jesus is claiming exists between God and himself, it is apparently something that is supposed to hold between God and all Christians – in which case it can hardly be the relation of numerical identity.

Likewise, in the two New Testament passages where Jesus is said to have regarded himself as “equal with God� – John 5:18 and Philippians 2:6 – the Greek word translated “equal� is isos, which means “on the same level� or “of the same rank,� never “identical.� The claim that Jesus was God did not become Christian orthodoxy until the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. The orthodox reading of these passages seems natural today only because they are read through the lens of what “everybody knows� about Jesus’ claims to divinity; few would find incarnationism in the texts unless they first brought it there.

An objector may point to the opening lines of the Gospel of John, which apparently identify the “Logos� with God (John 1:1) and the “Logos made flesh� with Jesus (John 1:14). Of course these lines were not spoken by Jesus, and so do not show that Jesus himself claimed to be God; but in any case, what exactly are they saying? The relation between God and the Logos seems to fall short of strict identity; the Greek, literally translated, says something like “the Logos was with the God, and God is what the Logos was� – an awkward construction clearly trying to express a subtler relation than identity. The term “Logos� is borrowed from Greek philosophy, where it means a thing’s abstract rational nature; the Logos that is “with� God and is what God is, is not God but God’s nature. To say that Jesus is the Logos made flesh, then, is simply to say that he is a physical embodiment of God’s nature. This hardly makes him identical with God, since all human beings are supposed to be created from God’s spirit (Genesis 2:7) and in God’s image and likeness (Genesis 1:26-27).

Indeed the New Testament authors clearly understand Jesus as offering everyone the opportunity to be sons (and daughters) of God and to partake of God’s nature:


“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.� (John 1:12-13)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ... And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.� (Romans 8:14-17)

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.� (1 John 3:2)
As the New Testament authors understand Jesus’ message, being the “Son of God� is evidently not a status that Jesus claims for himself alone, but one that is open to all Christians;

http://praxeology.net/unblog02-04.htm


There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, 'That is from God,' but it is not from God: It is they who tell a lie against God and (well) they know it! (3,78)

Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. ( 2,85

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Post #10

Post by Bigmo »

medieval times, several Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence held that apostasy by a male Muslim is punishable by death, differing on whether to execute the apostate immediately or grant the apostate an initial opportunity to repent and thus avoid penalty. They also differentiated between harmful and harmless apostasy (also known as major and minor apostasy) in accepting repentance.[11][citation needed] However, other scholars also held different views, such as that of Ibrahim al-Nakha'i (d. 715) and Sufyan al-Thawri and their followers, who rejected the death penalty and prescribed indefinite imprisonment until repentance. The hanafi jurist Sarakhsi also called for different punishments between the non-seditious religious apostasy and that of seditious and political nature, or high treason.[12][13]

Medieval Islamic scholars also differed on the punishment of a female apostate: death, enslavement, or imprisonment until repentance. Abu Hanifa and his followers refused the death penalty for female apostates, supporting imprisonment until they re-embrace Islam. Hanafi scholars maintain that a female apostate should not be killed because it was forbidden to kill women by the Islamic prophet Muhammad, and because women are unlikely to take up arms and endanger the community.[13]

In modern times, some Islamic scholars, including Wael Hallaq, state that apostasy laws are not derived from the Qur'an.[14] Several modern scholars oppose any penalty for apostasy, including Gamal Al-Banna,[6][15] Taha Jabir Alalwani,[16] Ahmad Kutty of the Islamic Institute of Toronto[7] and Shabir Ally.[17] Quran Alone Muslims do not support the apostasy penalty, citing verses from Qur'an which advocate free will.[18]

Others believe that the death penalty can only be applied when apostasy is coupled with attempts to "harm" the Muslim community, rejecting the death penalty in other cases. These include,[1][19][20] Ahmad Shafaat,[21] Jamal Badawi,[11] Yusuf Estes,[22] Javed Ahmad Ghamidi,[23] Inayatullah Subhani [24] and Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji.

Qur'an

It has been suggested that "The Qur'an states that God (in Arabic, Allah) despises apostasy, with severe punishment to be imposed in the hereafter, but not mentioning explicitly any earthly penalty for apostates. Except for 16:106–109, the verses that discuss apostasy all appear in surahs identified as Madinan, that is, they belong to the period when the Islamic state had been established." However, mainstream translations, such as those by Pickthall, Asad, Malik, Yusuf Ali and even Maududi, a 'liberal' translator[45] contradict this.

Qur'an Surah 4. An-Nisa, Ayah 89 or Qur'an 4:89 [46] states that "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-". This command to kill or slay is in all mainstream translations.[47] Furthermore it is Qur'an 4:89 that is often quoted in Sharia courts as justification for the execution of an Apostate. However, the following verse Qur'an 4:90 expands on this to "Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."[48] In addition, the previous verse states that this verse refers to the hypocrites, "Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way." Quran 4: 88.

Hadith

Within the different Hadith collections, there are references to worldly punishments for committing apostasy in Islam.

Within the Sahih al-Bukhari collection, worldly punishments are described in the following Hadith:

"2171. Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh (there is no god but Allâh), cannot be shed except in three cases: 1. Life for life (in cases of intentional murders without right i.e., in Al-Qis̩âs̩ – Law of Equality in punishment); 2. A married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse; and 3. The one who turns renegade from Islâm (apostate) and leaves the group of Muslims. [9:17-O.B]"[49]

The Sahih Muslim collection, reiterates and confirms that which is in the Sahih al-Bukhari collection:

"(4152) 'Abdullah (b. Mas'Å«d) reported Allah's Messenger as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact) that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community."[50]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam



As can be seen, there is a clear contradiction between what the Quran says (defensive war) and how Sunni scholars want to interpret is as (apostasy law). This is because of the hadith they follow. This is another example of how many things have been introduced in Islam through the hadith collection that not only is not stated in the Quran but in many cases contradicts it tooth and nail. Apostasy law has been used in the history of Islam to silence critics.

Apostasy law and offensive war are perhaps the biggest difference between Quranic Islam and Sunni/Shia Islam.

Quran is peace.

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