The Koran on freedom of religion and faith

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

Moderator: Moderators

Bigmo
Student
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:01 pm

The Koran on freedom of religion and faith

Post #1

Post by Bigmo »

What does the Koran orders the prophet to do and how to behave:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

21:107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."

22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.

36:16 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!

"So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6:113-114

"And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 6:68

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 7143
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 1271 times
Been thanked: 1504 times

Re: Re:

Post #21

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:38 pm [Replying to Tcg in post #20]

Nice to see you back here but where is your evidence that the Quran is not the word of God first before you ask for an evidence. You couldn't notice that Quran is an evidence itself now you prove that Quran is not the word of God and prophet muhammad is not his massenger and I need evidence for both.
Now you've taken another path you claim, without evidence, that atheists use:
...and usually they will end up saying prove us wrong.
You've just used the very method you've claimed is invalid. The fact is, if you claim the Quran is the word of God and that muhammad [sic] is his massenger [sic], then it is your job to provide evidence to support your claims.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

mms20102
Scholar
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:45 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Re:

Post #22

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Tcg in post #22]

You ignored the first half of the post because it's an evidence itself and you jumped to another topic to debate ok open a new post 1on1 debate about the existence of God and we can debate there

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 7143
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 1271 times
Been thanked: 1504 times

Re: Re:

Post #23

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:55 pm [Replying to Tcg in post #22]

You ignored the first half of the post because it's an evidence itself and you jumped to another topic to debate ok open a new post 1on1 debate about the existence of God and we can debate there
I addressed the totality of your post and the claims it contains. You can either choose to attempt to support your claims or refuse to. It is not my job to support a claim I haven't made. Will you accept your responsibility to support the claims you have made here?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

mms20102
Scholar
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:45 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Re:

Post #24

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Tcg in post #24]


And the evidence presented to support these claims? 0. Absolute zero.
I addressed the totality of your post and the claims it contains. You can either choose to attempt to support your claims or refuse to. It is not my job to support a claim I haven't made. Will you accept your responsibility to support the claims you have made here?
1-It seems like you failed to support the personal notes and now you ask me to support something I don't have to. I say Quran is the word of God you say it is not >>>>> you are the one to provide the evidence not me. You see when I go to the judge and he ask me, are you a thief?! and I reply no, then you say no, you are a thief and you have to prove you didn't steal my money. the judge will ask you for evidences not me since the nature is me being clean moral person.
I can have more than one claim to support my view point but I will only mention them after you mention your evidences and objections to the idea that Quran is the word of God not before.

2- If you have no evidences to support your claims let me know and I will gladly continue the conversation in a general discussion.

3-I wonder why you ignored my offer to make a 1on1 debate in any topic you want to discuss ?! I hope you can answer this request.

4- You said you pointed out the totality, pointing out something doesn't proof it to be wrong or right or else I can say all the claims I want. Again unless you have evidences don't ask me to provide any.

User avatar
Difflugia
Guru
Posts: 2293
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 1837 times
Been thanked: 1361 times

Re: Re:

Post #25

Post by Difflugia »

mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:32 amIt seems like you failed to support the personal notes and now you ask me to support something I don't have to. I say Quran is the word of God you say it is not >>>>> you are the one to provide the evidence not me.
"I'm going to believe [some magical thing] unless you prove it's not real" isn't going to get you very far in any sort of debate. So far, you've offered exactly as much evidence for the Quran as we have for any other made-up thing. "There is an invisible leprechaun living under my bed" or "I can shoot lasers from my eyes, I just don't want to right now" have exactly the same quality of support as "the Quran is the word of God." Though they're all impossible to disprove in principle, there's also no evidence for thinking that they are true.

Simply making an unsupported claim and shouting "prove me wrong" is neither valid nor interesting as a debate proposal. If you have something more to bring to the table, bring it. Otherwise, I'll say hello to the leprechaun for you.
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

mms20102
Scholar
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:45 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Re:

Post #26

Post by mms20102 »

Difflugia wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:27 am
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:32 amIt seems like you failed to support the personal notes and now you ask me to support something I don't have to. I say Quran is the word of God you say it is not >>>>> you are the one to provide the evidence not me.
"I'm going to believe [some magical thing] unless you prove it's not real" isn't going to get you very far in any sort of debate. So far, you've offered exactly as much evidence for the Quran as we have for any other made-up thing. "There is an invisible leprechaun living under my bed" or "I can shoot lasers from my eyes, I just don't want to right now" have exactly the same quality of support as "the Quran is the word of God." Though they're all impossible to disprove in principle, there's also no evidence for thinking that they are true.

Simply making an unsupported claim and shouting "prove me wrong" is neither valid nor interesting as a debate proposal. If you have something more to bring to the table, bring it. Otherwise, I'll say hello to the leprechaun for you.
You see If you have read Quran you would find the challenges that you have to meet and let's go through some of them :

1- And if you are in doubt about what We have bestowed upon Our servant from on high, then bring a single surah of its like, and call your witnesses apart from Allah if you are truthful.
https://quran.com/2/23
2- O mankind, a parable has been set forth, so listen to it: indeed, those whom you call upon apart from Allah shall never create a fly, even if they were to band together for that purpose; and if a fly snatches anything from them, they cannot recover it from it. Weak are the pursuer and the pursued.
https://quran.com/22/73

So in order to decline something you have to present a counter part or else you are asking me to take non-sense as reality. Again I can have more than one evidence that supports Quran what is your evidence to criticize it as a non-divine message ?.
The evidences are clear but the counter evidences are simply 0.

A Question you might ask is who will be the judge and the answer is simple any biased philologist that you choose.

mms20102
Scholar
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:45 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Re:

Post #27

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #26]
The Qur’an, being a highly poetical text, celebrates high language in an unprecedented way
and thus raises the Arab heritage to a new level of dignity.
https://iqsaweb.files.wordpress.com/201 ... ote_an.pdf

User avatar
Difflugia
Guru
Posts: 2293
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 1837 times
Been thanked: 1361 times

Re: Re:

Post #28

Post by Difflugia »

mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:49 am1- And if you are in doubt about what We have bestowed upon Our servant from on high, then bring a single surah of its like, and call your witnesses apart from Allah if you are truthful.
What is that evidence of?
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:49 am2- O mankind, a parable has been set forth, so listen to it: indeed, those whom you call upon apart from Allah shall never create a fly, even if they were to band together for that purpose; and if a fly snatches anything from them, they cannot recover it from it. Weak are the pursuer and the pursued.
What is that evidence of?
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:49 amSo in order to decline something you have to present a counter part or else you are asking me to take non-sense as reality.
I assert that there are no gods. Now if you're going to deny that, you have to present your rebuttal. Otherwise, you are asking me to believe nonsense.
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:49 amAgain I can have more than one evidence that supports Quran...
That would be nice. Do you? Can you tell us what some of that evidence is?
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:49 am...what is your evidence to criticize it as a non-divine message ?
My favorite is how Muhammad (or whoever actually wrote the nineteenth surah) confused the Greek Maria, mother of Jesus and Hebrew Miriam, sister of Moses and Aaron because both were rendered as Maryam in Arabic. That's a perfectly understandable error for a human being to make, but it seems a stretch that an omniscient god would confuse people born roughly a thousand years apart (assuming they both actually existed, that is).
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:49 amThe evidences are clear...
Maybe, but you haven't told us what they are.
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:49 am...but the counter evidences are simply 0.
Well, now you're up to 1.
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:49 amA Question you might ask is who will be the judge and the answer is simple any biased philologist that you choose.
Judging what?
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:56 amThe Qur’an, being a highly poetical text, celebrates high language in an unprecedented way and thus raises the Arab heritage to a new level of dignity.
As long as "unprecedented" is simply meant as a bit of hyperbolic praise (we have examples of pre-Islamic poetry, after all), I agree. Now, what is that evidence of?
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

mms20102
Scholar
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:45 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Re:

Post #29

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #29]
What is that evidence of?
This is evidence that Quran is not a normal literature.
What is that evidence of?
There is a creator.
My favorite is how Muhammad (or whoever actually wrote the nineteenth surah) confused the Greek Maria, mother of Jesus and Hebrew Miriam, sister of Moses and Aaron because both were rendered as Maryam in Arabic. That's a perfectly understandable error for a human being to make, but it seems a stretch that an omniscient god would confuse people born roughly a thousand years apart (assuming they both actually existed, that is).
Top level sophistry. It's strange how you compare Hebrew to Greek. Failing to understand the basic Islamic literature you came up with this joke. Give me one evidence that Maryam Sister of Aron and Moses is the same Maryam mother of Jesus and sister of Aron. As if people at old times had only 1 Aron and 1 Maryam. Do you even read carefully ?
As long as "unprecedented" is simply meant as a bit of hyperbolic praise (we have examples of pre-Islamic poetry, after all), I agree. Now, what is that evidence of?
A western non-Muslim will use (a bit of hyperbolic praise) That's going to be a fun debate full of luagh :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

When you refer to the evidence with being (a bit of hyperbolic praise) and refuse to present a counter evidence that's the moment you should confess your lack of resources

User avatar
Difflugia
Guru
Posts: 2293
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 1837 times
Been thanked: 1361 times

Re: Re:

Post #30

Post by Difflugia »

mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:15 amThis is evidence that Quran is not a normal literature.
What exactly is the difference between the Quran and "normal literature?" Can this be measured in some way?
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:15 amThere is a creator.
"Look at that fly" is not evidence of a creator. It's evidence of flies.
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:15 amTop level sophistry.
As long as it's top level.
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:15 amIt's strange how you compare Hebrew to Greek.
What's strange about it?
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:15 amFailing to understand the basic Islamic literature you came up with this joke. Give me one evidence that Maryam Sister of Aron and Moses is the same Maryam mother of Jesus and sister of Aron.
Mary, mother of Jesus is referred to as sister of Aaron in 19:27-34, mirroring Exodus 15:20, and daughter of Imran in 3:36, apparently an Arabic corruption of the Hebrew Amram (Ex. 16:20).
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:15 amAs if people at old times had only 1 Aron and 1 Maryam.
As if it would be coincidence that the only person called sister of Aaron and daughter of Imran would be named Maryam. Pretending that the text might mean something different than what it actually says is the refuge of apologists everywhere. "Sophistry," I think it's called.
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:15 amDo you even read carefully ?
Very carefully.
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:15 amA western non-Muslim will use (a bit of hyperbolic praise) That's going to be a fun debate full of luagh :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
Like a religious apologist assuming the superiority of their favorite text without evidence?
mms20102 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:15 amWhen you refer to the evidence with being (a bit of hyperbolic praise) and refuse to present a counter evidence that's the moment you should confess your lack of resources
What evidence? You quoted someone that claimed that the Quran was "unprecedented" because it is "highly poetical." We have enough examples of pre-Islamic poetry to treat it as a genre, so the quote is either hyperbolic or just plain wrong. Which is it?
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

Post Reply