Its my understanding of Islam that it wants to 'take over' the world, making Islam the default religion for all. I ask these questions in a sincere effort to seek the truth, and I ask in an honest effort to clear the air.
Please forgive me if I'm in error, and I can't quote the Koran, I'm trying to get some clarification.
1- Does Islam seek to impose its brand of religion on the world?
2- Does Islam allow others to worship as they please, with no restrictions, taxes, or any other impediments?
3- Leave Israel out. Do NOT include it in this thread. Could Islam allow Jewish people to form their own communities? Again, we will NOT discuss Israel What I'm asking is could Islam accept a Jewish community to exist outside of any place that Islam considers holy?
4- I understand how delicate the Israel issue is, and I do NOT want to stir that nest up in this thread. If anyone wishes to discuss Israel start a different thread.
The Muslim Stance
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JoeyKnothead
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Re: The Muslim Stance
Post #2Hello,joeyknuccione wrote:Its my understanding of Islam that it wants to 'take over' the world, making Islam the default religion for all. I ask these questions in a sincere effort to seek the truth, and I ask in an honest effort to clear the air.
Please forgive me if I'm in error, and I can't quote the Koran, I'm trying to get some clarification.
1- Does Islam seek to impose its brand of religion on the world?
2- Does Islam allow others to worship as they please, with no restrictions, taxes, or any other impediments?
3- Leave Israel out. Do NOT include it in this thread. Could Islam allow Jewish people to form their own communities? Again, we will NOT discuss Israel What I'm asking is could Islam accept a Jewish community to exist outside of any place that Islam considers holy?
4- I understand how delicate the Israel issue is, and I do NOT want to stir that nest up in this thread. If anyone wishes to discuss Israel start a different thread.
This response is quite late, so I apologize in advance if it's not relevant anymore.
1- Does Islam seek to impose its brand of religion on the world? NO
Sorry... got to cut it short. But I'll be back (God willing) to finish the rest of the questions to be best of my ability.
Re: The Muslim Stance
Post #3"And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should only be for allah" (8.39) Sounds more like the answer is yes.Ms_Maryam wrote:Hello,joeyknuccione wrote:Its my understanding of Islam that it wants to 'take over' the world, making Islam the default religion for all. I ask these questions in a sincere effort to seek the truth, and I ask in an honest effort to clear the air.
Please forgive me if I'm in error, and I can't quote the Koran, I'm trying to get some clarification.
1- Does Islam seek to impose its brand of religion on the world?
2- Does Islam allow others to worship as they please, with no restrictions, taxes, or any other impediments?
3- Leave Israel out. Do NOT include it in this thread. Could Islam allow Jewish people to form their own communities? Again, we will NOT discuss Israel What I'm asking is could Islam accept a Jewish community to exist outside of any place that Islam considers holy?
4- I understand how delicate the Israel issue is, and I do NOT want to stir that nest up in this thread. If anyone wishes to discuss Israel start a different thread.
This response is quite late, so I apologize in advance if it's not relevant anymore.
1- Does Islam seek to impose its brand of religion on the world? NO
Sorry... got to cut it short. But I'll be back (God willing) to finish the rest of the questions to be best of my ability.
2&3: "Fight those who do not believe in allah, nor in the later day, nor do they prohibit what allah and his apostles prohibit, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those that have been given the book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."(9.29) The answer to both seems to be no.
Post #4
Oh, yes. This thread slipped my mind. I forgot to come back.
Anywho...
Wyvern:
You can't just take a verse out of the Quran and leave it at that. As you might already know, Muslims believe the verses were revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) from God by an angel (which eventually were compiled to form the Quran). The verses in the Quran deals with a certain situation/incident, and it's crucial to find out WHY a verse was revealed to understand the verse itself.
Surah 8 verse 39 (The verse you posted must've been an annotation
)
Here's the entire verse:
"And fight them until there is no oppression and the religion is all for Allah. But if they desist,then indeed, Allah is All-Seer of what they do."
I have to cut this short again. I'll continue later.
Anywho...
Wyvern:
You can't just take a verse out of the Quran and leave it at that. As you might already know, Muslims believe the verses were revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) from God by an angel (which eventually were compiled to form the Quran). The verses in the Quran deals with a certain situation/incident, and it's crucial to find out WHY a verse was revealed to understand the verse itself.
Surah 8 verse 39 (The verse you posted must've been an annotation
)Here's the entire verse:
"And fight them until there is no oppression and the religion is all for Allah. But if they desist,then indeed, Allah is All-Seer of what they do."
I have to cut this short again. I'll continue later.
Post #5
9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Look at what is happening to Christians in muslim majority countries-copts in Eygpt, Christians in Iran, etc.
Islam is really not only a "religion" but a political system. I believe it to be worse then communism because they have attached allah to it.
True muslims believe that sharia law should rule over any other law. Here is an example:
The indemnity for killing a male Muslim is 100 camels.
The indemnity for the death or injury of a woman is one-half the indemnity paid for a man.
The indemnity paid for a Jew or Christian is one-third of the indemnity paid for a Muslim.
The indemnity paid of a Zoroastrian is one-fifteenth of that a Muslim.
Look at what is happening to Christians in muslim majority countries-copts in Eygpt, Christians in Iran, etc.
Islam is really not only a "religion" but a political system. I believe it to be worse then communism because they have attached allah to it.
True muslims believe that sharia law should rule over any other law. Here is an example:
The indemnity for killing a male Muslim is 100 camels.
The indemnity for the death or injury of a woman is one-half the indemnity paid for a man.
The indemnity paid for a Jew or Christian is one-third of the indemnity paid for a Muslim.
The indemnity paid of a Zoroastrian is one-fifteenth of that a Muslim.
Post #6
Hello vans.van wrote:9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Look at what is happening to Christians in muslim majority countries-copts in Eygpt, Christians in Iran, etc.
Islam is really not only a "religion" but a political system. I believe it to be worse then communism because they have attached allah to it.
True muslims believe that sharia law should rule over any other law. Here is an example:
The indemnity for killing a male Muslim is 100 camels.
The indemnity for the death or injury of a woman is one-half the indemnity paid for a man.
The indemnity paid for a Jew or Christian is one-third of the indemnity paid for a Muslim.
The indemnity paid of a Zoroastrian is one-fifteenth of that a Muslim.
Thank you for showing interest in Islamic teaching so that I may reply . I'll try keep it short and sweet
Yes, you are correct when you say that Islam is not only a religion, but it governs politics too. In Arabic, Islam is referred to as Deen, which means "a way of life." Islam is a way of life for those who believe in it. Everything is centered around the fact that we are put here by our creator, and when we meet our maker, we will have to account for everything we did in this life. Islam does affect almost every aspect of your life; From the way you eat and talk to the way you behave and dress. Therefore, it it governs the smallest aspects of life, ofcourse it will govern society and politics. I understand that if you don't believe in God, then this might seem extreme.
So ofcourse Muslims are going to believe Islamic Sharia law is the most important.
Now you threw a lot of "facts" out there without any sources whatsoever.
We have to remember not to believe everything we read/hear.
You commented on the state of non-Muslims living in majority Muslim countries? Just wondering, have you ever been to said countries? Or are you speaking from a second hand source?
Do remember that throughout history and presently, there are plenty of Muslim countries around the world where non-Muslims and Muslims peacefully coexist(ed).
Next point:
You posted verse 9:29.
9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
You are posting a verse, interpreting it , and concluding what this verse is talking about. This is a common thing for people who don't know have a basic understanding of Islam and the Quran. I think that's one of the worst things to do with the Quran; to approach the Quran to confirm one's view of Islam while ignoring the rest of the Quran. Anyone can find anything they want to prove in the Quran. However, the task comes when taking all Quranic evidence and making a sound conclusion from it.
Chapter 9, in English, is translated as "The Repentance" or "The Disavowal." In Arabia, around the year 630, if I'm not mistaken, there was a period when pagans broke the treaties they had with the Muslims, and were guilty of treachery. This chapter in the Quran refers to this situation. A period of 4 months is given to those who broke the treaty, so they may have time to repent. If not, the next step must be taken to ensure fairness and justice. Verse 9:29 refers to those who've broken the treaties.
Undestanding the Quran in it's historical context is fundamental and obligatory is you are trying to understand what the Quran is saying. Don't confine the Quran to it's arabic text/english translation. Verses must also be interpreted along with other verses in the Quran, not just by itself.
So the next time you read verse 9:29, be sure to go look at60:8
60:8 God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just.
Thank you for hearing my point of view.
Post #7
That verse 60:8 has been abrogated or as muslims say all verses are good but a better one has been put in place.
Peaceful verse were written first and the more violent ones came later.
From ISLAM AND TERRORISM,
pg. 30, by Mark Gabriel.
“Islamic scholars had to determine, therefore, which verses to follow in the case of a contradiction. This was accomplished by the principle of naskh.
Naskh is based on the fact that the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad at different times over a period of about twenty-two years. Some parts of the Qur’an came later, and some parts came earlier. To solve contradictions they decided that new revelations would override (naskh)k previous revelations.
There are at least 114 verses in the Qur’an that speak of love, peace, forgiveness especially in the surah titled “The Heifer�(Surah 2:62, 109). But when Surah 9:5 was revealed later, it canceled out those previous verses. This verse states:
Fight and slay the pagan wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent and establish Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
-Ali Translation
This is known as the verse of the sword and it explains that Muslims must fight anyone who chooses not to convert to Islam, whether they are inside or outside of Arabia. It is considered to represent a final development of Jihad in Islam.2
The principle of naskh is very strong. If a verse is naskh, or overridden, it is as if that verse doesn’t exist.�
Peaceful verse were written first and the more violent ones came later.
From ISLAM AND TERRORISM,
pg. 30, by Mark Gabriel.
“Islamic scholars had to determine, therefore, which verses to follow in the case of a contradiction. This was accomplished by the principle of naskh.
Naskh is based on the fact that the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad at different times over a period of about twenty-two years. Some parts of the Qur’an came later, and some parts came earlier. To solve contradictions they decided that new revelations would override (naskh)k previous revelations.
There are at least 114 verses in the Qur’an that speak of love, peace, forgiveness especially in the surah titled “The Heifer�(Surah 2:62, 109). But when Surah 9:5 was revealed later, it canceled out those previous verses. This verse states:
Fight and slay the pagan wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent and establish Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
-Ali Translation
This is known as the verse of the sword and it explains that Muslims must fight anyone who chooses not to convert to Islam, whether they are inside or outside of Arabia. It is considered to represent a final development of Jihad in Islam.2
The principle of naskh is very strong. If a verse is naskh, or overridden, it is as if that verse doesn’t exist.�
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Goat
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Post #8
Considering the vast bias that Mark Gabriel has shown in his work, and the fact it is a fake name, why should I accept his interpretation of what Muslims believe? What are those passages in context, and how do Islamic scholars who are believers explain them?van wrote:That verse 60:8 has been abrogated or as muslims say all verses are good but a better one has been put in place.
Peaceful verse were written first and the more violent ones came later.
From ISLAM AND TERRORISM,
pg. 30, by Mark Gabriel.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
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Post #9
Quoting verse out of context and without knowledge is old childish game of christians.van wrote:That verse 60:8 has been abrogated or as muslims say all verses are good but a better one has been put in place.
Peaceful verse were written first and the more violent ones came later.
From ISLAM AND TERRORISM,
pg. 30, by Mark Gabriel.
“Islamic scholars had to determine, therefore, which verses to follow in the case of a contradiction. This was accomplished by the principle of naskh.
Naskh is based on the fact that the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad at different times over a period of about twenty-two years. Some parts of the Qur’an came later, and some parts came earlier. To solve contradictions they decided that new revelations would override (naskh)k previous revelations.
There are at least 114 verses in the Qur’an that speak of love, peace, forgiveness especially in the surah titled “The Heifer�(Surah 2:62, 109). But when Surah 9:5 was revealed later, it canceled out those previous verses. This verse states:
Fight and slay the pagan wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent and establish Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
-Ali Translation
This is known as the verse of the sword and it explains that Muslims must fight anyone who chooses not to convert to Islam, whether they are inside or outside of Arabia. It is considered to represent a final development of Jihad in Islam.2
The principle of naskh is very strong. If a verse is naskh, or overridden, it is as if that verse doesn’t exist.�
You made a very bad and loose attempt van. Quran has 114 chapters, not verses my dear, this shows how much knowledge you have for Quran, and you are taking half part of your interest to go and write against Islam, dont forget you are on debate site, where others are here to provide the correct and exact material.
Post #10
The false name could be explained by the fact that Muslims kill people for saying anything against Islam.
Look at what happens to apostates, Theo van Gogh, Geert Wilders and Mohammad cartoonists-only death threats at this point.
Have you seen this information?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/abrogation.htm
As for the goal of Islam:
Regarding 2:193, the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, op cit, states:
Then Allah orders Muslims to kill the disbelievers "until there is no more Fitnah." According to Ibn Abbas and others, "Fitnah" means polytheism, "And religion (worship), is for Allah" meaning Allah’s religion should stand supreme and overshadowing the rest of the religions.]/B] In the Sahihayn, it is reported that the Prophet said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says it will save his life and property from me except on breaking the law (rights and conditions for which he will be punished justly), and his accounts will be with Allah""
Look at what happens to apostates, Theo van Gogh, Geert Wilders and Mohammad cartoonists-only death threats at this point.
Have you seen this information?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/abrogation.htm
As for the goal of Islam:
Regarding 2:193, the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, op cit, states:
Then Allah orders Muslims to kill the disbelievers "until there is no more Fitnah." According to Ibn Abbas and others, "Fitnah" means polytheism, "And religion (worship), is for Allah" meaning Allah’s religion should stand supreme and overshadowing the rest of the religions.]/B] In the Sahihayn, it is reported that the Prophet said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says it will save his life and property from me except on breaking the law (rights and conditions for which he will be punished justly), and his accounts will be with Allah""
