Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Post by Veridican »

The Veridican Argument for the Existence of God


Preamble and Necessary Stipulations

The first thing you must do is define what God is because if you go looking for a false notion of God, you won't find it. A false god truly does not exist, so there is no proof of it.

One must get past the belief of (and need for) a God that is like a human figure of a man sitting on a large throne in an astral place called heaven. Certainly, God could appear that way in a "vision", but that vision would be completely subjective to the one having it--just like a burning bush was to Moses (presumably).

For this argument, God is defined as the monistic entity. That means He is the only thing that is real, and all other things that seem to exist are modalities of his substance. Do not confuse this with pantheism. Pantheism states that God is the universe. Monism states that the universe is of the substance of God. Monistically speaking, therefore, the universe is God, but God is not just the universe. God is that which is the only real thing that exists, that has ever existed, that will always exist.

Secondly, don't go looking for a physical sign of God's existence; it doesn't work that way. If God exists as the monistic entity, then God necessarily is of a higher order of existence than the physical world. Thus, proof is going to have to be of a higher order because the "physical" proof of God is, after all, the entire physical universe. To ask for physical proof of God is like standing in a hundred acres of trees and asking for proof of the forest.

The next step is to move your thoughts to that higher order of thinking. Contemplate "nothingness." By that, I mean true nothingness. Imagine nothing exists--not even you as the imaginer of it. This can't be done ordinarily, of course, which is why you must use higher thought to envision it, like when we try to imagine a fourth dimension or space-time. Chances are that as you contemplate it, you will only glimpse it in your mind. But that will be enough to follow this argument.

Therefore:

Argument Axioms

Axiom #1: Nothingness is an eternal state.

If there is a state of nothingness, there will always be and has always been a state of nothingness. To imagine something popping into existence from nothingness requires "magical thinking," which isn't rational, but even if it were rational, true nothingness would not have existed in the first place. There would have always been the magic that popped something into existence. So, if there was ever nothingness--there would still only be nothingness.


Axiom #2: Something exists.

The universe with all its forces and matter exists. This does not need any further proof.


Axiom #3: If something exists, then something has always existed.

For if there was a time when there was nothing before there was something, then nothingness would still exist because nothingness is necessarily eternal (see axiom #1).


Axiom #4: If something exists, it is the only thing that has ever existed.

For if there were two things wholly separate from each other, then between those two things would be nothing--and if nothingness exists anywhere at any time, it is eternal.


Axiom #5: Something and nothing cannot exist together.

Either there is one thing that has always existed, or there is nothingness that has always existed. And if there is a state of nothingness of any size or shape, then it existed before something. For once something exists, it is the only thing that exists. Keep in mind that "something" does not float in a sea of "nothingness" There is no "outside" of something. There is not that which exists and that which does not exist. There is only one or the other, and as we know, there is something that exists (Axiom #2).


Axiom #6: The one thing that exists has consciousness as an attribute.

It may have many other attributes as well. It may have infinite attributes or at least all the attributes that can exist. But one of those attributes is consciousness. We know this because we are conscious, and we are necessarily part of the one thing that exists.


Conclusion:

If nothingness was ever a state of being, it would have never changed from that state. However, because something does exist, it is the one thing that does exist and must have always existed. That one substance that exists is minimally a conscious entity. Therefore, the one thing that has existed eternally, and is conscious, is what we call "God."

--The End--

NOTE: This argument was originally created by Rev. Edward J. Gordon on October 10, 2018.
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Post by Athetotheist »

Veridican wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:51 am
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:21 pm Why do you believe that there's even going to be an "antichrist"?

First, there's supposed to be a being known as "Satan" or the "devil". He's supposed to be the most highly intelligent being ever created, yet he supposedly rebelled against a creator whom he knew to be omnipotent.......and actually expected to win. His "rebellion" is blamed on pride, but for such a highly intelligent being to expect victory over his own omnipotent creator wouldn't be just prideful; it would be delusional. Such a being would have to be so mentally unhinged as to be unfit to stand any trial.

Then, this being is supposed to send an "antichrist" to the earth to continue his delusional rampage. He presumably knows that this has been prophesied, but apparently doesn't have the wits to realize that all he would have to do to defeat the prophecy is not go along with it. If he didn't send an antichrist, the whole prophecy would fail with no effort on his part. Wouldn't that be the thing for the ultimate cosmic rebel to do?

To me those sound like descriptions of a being who's not very smart, and I believe that to be highly compelling evidence that the being in question doesn't exist at all.
Who ever said Satan had free will?
If he doesn't have free will, for what can he be judged?

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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Post by Veridican »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:54 pm If he doesn't have free will, for what can he be judged?
Satan never faces judgement. Not that I know of. He's defeated and--ultimately--thrown into the "lake of fire."
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Veridican wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:58 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:54 pm If he doesn't have free will, for what can he be judged?
Satan never faces judgement. Not that I know of. He's defeated and--ultimately--thrown into the "lake of fire."
What for? If he has no free will, he isn't responsible for his actions.

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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Post by Miles »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:19 pm
Veridican wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:58 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:54 pm If he doesn't have free will, for what can he be judged?
Satan never faces judgement. Not that I know of. He's defeated and--ultimately--thrown into the "lake of fire."
What for? If he has no free will, he isn't responsible for his actions.
Quite true, yet because only a minority believe free will doesn't exist we do hold people, including devils, responsible. Majority rules, as it were. Thing is, Christians have significant stock in championing the idea of free will because without it the idea of sin and salvation crumbles.




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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Post by Athetotheist »

Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:44 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:19 pm
Veridican wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:58 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:54 pm If he doesn't have free will, for what can he be judged?
Satan never faces judgement. Not that I know of. He's defeated and--ultimately--thrown into the "lake of fire."
What for? If he has no free will, he isn't responsible for his actions.
Quite true, yet because only a minority believe free will doesn't exist we do hold people, including devils, responsible. Majority rules, as it were. Thing is, Christians have significant stock in championing the idea of free will because without it the idea of sin and salvation crumbles.
But if someone without free will is punished, the idea of justice crumbles.

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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Post by Miles »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:14 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:44 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:19 pm
Veridican wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:58 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:54 pm If he doesn't have free will, for what can he be judged?
Satan never faces judgement. Not that I know of. He's defeated and--ultimately--thrown into the "lake of fire."
What for? If he has no free will, he isn't responsible for his actions.
Quite true, yet because only a minority believe free will doesn't exist we do hold people, including devils, responsible. Majority rules, as it were. Thing is, Christians have significant stock in championing the idea of free will because without it the idea of sin and salvation crumbles.
But if someone without free will is punished, the idea of justice crumbles.
Indeed it does, but that's our injustice system. Image


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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:19 pm What for? If he has no free will, he isn't responsible for his actions.
What's that got to do with anything--when it comes to God that is?
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Post by Veridican »

Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:44 pm
Quite true, yet because only a minority believe free will doesn't exist we do hold people, including devils, responsible. Majority rules, as it were. Thing is, Christians have significant stock in championing the idea of free will because without it the idea of sin and salvation crumbles.
If humans have no free will, then they can still sin. Atonement is still necessary. Atonement is a mystery.
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Post by Veridican »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:14 pm But if someone without free will is punished, the idea of justice crumbles.
Justice? Justice matters to us because we are under justice. But what about God? The author of justice. Even if you don't believe in God, if you do the thought experiment, then you will see that Justice is whatever God says it is--even if you don't like it.

God can burn an innocent person in hell, and we can't. If God does it; it is good. Because if God exists, then by definition, whatever He wants is what has to be.

Eventually, the atheist will come to one of two conclusions: be an atheist and deal with the fact that nothing he does, from the smallest act to the largest makes any difference at all. Or...accept that God exists and realize that bowing down to God is the only thing the "creature" can do.

Your indignation is only justified if God isn't a God.
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Post by Miles »

Veridican wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:41 am
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:44 pm
Quite true, yet because only a minority believe free will doesn't exist we do hold people, including devils, responsible. Majority rules, as it were. Thing is, Christians have significant stock in championing the idea of free will because without it the idea of sin and salvation crumbles.
If humans have no free will, then they can still sin. Atonement is still necessary. Atonement is a mystery.
Isn't sin a voluntary act?


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