Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Pointless Posts, Raves n Rants, Obscure Opinions

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #1

Post by WebersHome »

.
Luke 16:26-27 . . Between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.

Although folks aren't permitted to cross back and forth over the chasm, they can at least communicate visually and audibly. I hope that's still the case because I would hate to think that I won't be able to catch up with my lost loved ones and my BFFs before they're permanently vanquished to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15.
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #11

Post by WebersHome »

.
Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son, remember . . .

Now right there we should bring in Solomon because he said:

"As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecc 9:5)

It's likely to me that Solomon's "the dead" refers to people's remains, i.e. their corpse. So if people's corpse is incapable of consciousness, then how did Abraham and the rich man manage to conduct a sensible conversation with each other in the afterlife?

Well; until somebody out there can explain to me how a corpse is able to communicate with another corpse from grave to grave, I will remain compelled by reason and logic to conclude that Luke 16:19-31 speaks of a supernatural reality instead of an impossible fantasy.

Anyway: I should think that one of the negative aspects of perdition is memory. How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells they left behind with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich. man in that story is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue. Apparently God has some sort of file transfer protocol that silicon valley has yet to discover.

The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, people down below not only have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and I should think it's remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that makes their situation only worse in the heat.

If everybody was born and raised in an oven; and never once ventured out; that would be the only life they've ever known, so they wouldn't have a clue what it's like to really live. For them the old maxim "Ignorance is bliss" would certainly hold true. For example: many of the people born and raised in Kim Jong-Un's North Korea sincerely believe the entire world is no better off than they are because they just simply don't know any better
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #12

Post by WebersHome »

.
Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.

Abraham recommended that the man's five brethren consult the Old Testament; which isn't necessarily futile because 2Tim 3:15 says the OT is able to make folks wise unto salvation.

However, the fact that Abraham did not recommend the New Testament tells me that it either hadn't been written yet, or its events had not yet taken place: which leads me to believe the story describes an afterlife event that took place prior to both Jesus' crucifixion and his resurrection.
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #13

Post by WebersHome »

.
Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that, though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that couldn't possibly be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets, stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, women losing coins, sons leaving home, wine skins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had stepped out of character with a story containing a moon made of green cheese; we would have good reason to suspect that at least that particular parable was fantasy; but they're all very consistent; not one of them is so far removed from normalcy as to have no basis in reality whatsoever.

Anyway, that's the problem I have with Luke 16:19-21. If it's a parable, then I pretty much have to concede that it's based upon a plausible, real-life incident same as all the others.
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #14

Post by WebersHome »

.
Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.

Judas goats are trained for use in slaughterhouses and herd control. In stockyards, they lead sheep to slaughter; and are also used to lead other animals to specific pens and on to trucks. The term is a reference to the biblical traitor Judas Iscariot.

The phrase has also been used to describe goats utilized to locate feral goats targeted for eradication. They're usually outfitted with a transmitter, painted in red and then released. The goats then locate the remaining herds of feral goats, allowing hunters with tracking devices to find and exterminate them. The red paint marks the goat with the transmitter so the hunters know which one not to shoot.

You know what can be even worse than going to Hell? Your own children following you there: and they trusted you.

Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess it's plausible.

A farmer went out to the barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak a pull from his secret liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard something coming up behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was easy; I walked in your footprints.

One can only imagine the anguish that parents in the netherworld must feel knowing that they inadvertently raised their children in an ideology that led them down a road to the infernal regions and all the while sincerely believing themselves doing the right thing. In other words: they actually Judas-goated their children to follow mom and dad down there. For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire and despair.
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #15

Post by WebersHome »

.
Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me-- speaks The Lord. And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against Me: their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric creatures, excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.

A worm that thrives in fire is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4" Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit; hot enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even warmer.

Anyway; point being: the rich man's current circumstances, though disagreeable, are quite a bit less severe than Isa 66:22-24 and he can take comfort in knowing he has some time before that scenario kicks in.
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #16

Post by WebersHome »

.
FAQ: The human body is organic. So then, how can it survive the heat as perpetual nourishment for those worms depicted in Isa 66:22-24?

A: The laws of nature are not absolute. They were created in the first chapter of Genesis to control the behavior of created matter, and as such are easily manipulated by the one who designed them.

For example: fire totally incinerated the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah but left unscathed a desert shrub that Moses encountered in the Sinai outback while tending his father-in-law's sheep. (Ex 3:1-3)

Compare Dan 3:8-27 where a blistering hot fire didn't even so much as singe the clothing of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego while slaying the guards that threw them in the furnace.


FAQ: Won't the worms eventually exhaust their food supply?

A: There are incidents in the Bible where small amounts of food stuffs were miraculously multiplied. One example is 1Kgs 17:8-16 where a tiny bit of flour and oil nourished Elijah and a widow woman, and her son, for a good many days during a time of prolonged drought.

Another incident is at 2Kgs 4:1-7 where a certain widow's husband died and left her deeply in debt. God multiplied her last pot of oil sufficiently to sell enough to pay off her debts, thereby saving her two sons from slavery.

No; I'm pretty sure those worms won't need to worry about running out of human remains with which to sustain themselves.


FAQ: That rich man in Luke 16:19-31 . . are worms gnawing on him?

A: For now his body is buried. It won't be till it's resurrected for him to face the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when he will be subjected to the worms.

The hell where he's being held for now is a sort of minimum security prison. The ultimate hell is a maximum security prison; and its accommodations are very unsavory; to say the least.


FAQ: Do you honestly approve these two hells about which you speak?

A: I honestly do not approve. I would much prefer that folks be annihilated than
kept in a perpetual state of conscious suffering. For the life of me; I just don't know
how God justifies doing that to people. I expect that degree of cruelty from social
monsters like Kim Jong-Un and Xi Jinping, but not from God.
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #17

Post by WebersHome »

.
Mark 4:34 . . But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

I would've liked to been on hand when Jesus expounded his defense for quoting Abraham saying things that he didn't really say; which in my judicious estimation is especially despicable due to the fact that Abraham is one of God's buddies. (Isa 41:8)

All I'm saying is: if we can't trust Jesus to tell the truth about his Father's friends, then how are we supposed to trust him to tell the truth about one of us?

This is a serious question because Jesus is the one and only mediator in Heaven between God and Man. Well; I for one don't want someone unfaithful to me speaking on my behalf before the throne of God.

One other point: nothing Jesus taught originated with him.


John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me.

John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

John 3:34-35 . .He is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

Heb 1:1-2 . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His son

I cannot imagine someone as famous for honesty and integrity as God directing His own son to tell us things about people that aren't true; especially about His friends.[/size]

John 17:3 . . You . . the only truthful God

Heb 6:18 . . it is impossible for God to lie

If God really is as reliable as the Bible presents Him; then I should think it completely safe to assume that all of Jesus' parables, every one of them, from the shortest to the longest, are 100% true stories.

As for Abraham; he was a prophet (Gen 20:7). As such, he would be privy to information normally unavailable to John Que and Jane Doe pew warmer. He is also one of God's close personal friends. (Gen 18:17-19, Isa 41:8)

So then, I think it's fairly safe to assume the information that Abraham passed on to the rich man came to Abraham via inspiration; which, if so, means that our reaction to his remarks should be very different than the rich man's. He brushed aside what Abraham told him; but we, I should hope, are wiser than that impious dunce because we know that a prophet's teachings are the voice of God; so to speak.
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #18

Post by WebersHome »

.
Luke 16:24-25 . . He cried out and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.

It's often assumed that the rich man was aflame like a burning log; but the passage above suggests he was in fire but wasn't necessarily on fire like someone coated with pitch. In other words; his side of the chasm was an oven, i.e. he was overheated and dehydrated but not kindled like a human torch.

Also; there's no mention of the rich man wailing and/or gnashing his teeth; which suggests to me the although he's in a great deal of discomfort; it's all what might be called threshold, i.e. within the limits of his tolerance for pain and not quite enough to make him writhe, groan, and/or howl like a wounded dog.

But how did the rich man expect Lazarus to come near him with some water? Did he actually take it for granted that the beggar would agree to risking his own personal safety?

To think there are actually people in this world who truly believe that the underprivileged exist solely for their benefit; sort of like commodities.


FAQ: Why wouldn't the rich man request passage for himself to cross over?

A: It's reasonable to expect that folks' first reaction upon arrival on the wrong side of the netherworld is primal fear, i.e. panic; which would quite naturally trigger a very strong impulse to try and find some way out of the flames the same as anybody would do caught in, say, a hotel fire. Consequently they find out right quick either by personal experience or by talking with long-time prisoners, that the chasm is impassible; at least from their side.

Now; exactly what the man had seen, or heard tell by others, that led him to hope against hope that folks from Abraham's side were able to cross, I don't know; maybe his request was just an act of desperation, or maybe he thought he was special and deserved exceptions? But I'm beginning to suspect there is lot more to this story than only the portions that Jesus exposed-- a lot more.
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #19

Post by WebersHome »

.
Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.

The rich man's dialogue with Abraham would likely go something like this in our day:

"I beg you, father Abraham; send Lazarus to my five brothers, let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."

"Your brothers have Christ and the Apostles; they can listen to them."

"No father, they won't listen to them; but if someone from the dead goes to my brothers, they will reconsider."

"If your brothers won't listen to Christ and the Apostles, neither will they listen to someone back from the dead."


NOTE: It's likely that there are folks here and there whose relations would listen to someone back from the dead. But alas, all five of the rich man's brothers were incorrigible.
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

Post #20

Post by WebersHome »

.
The rich man in Luke 16:19-31 is currently being held in a secure location awaiting trial at the event depicted by Rev 20:11-15 where he'll be reunited with his body along with everyone else on the wrong side of Hades-- he may have a long wait for his trial.

According to the Census Bureau, something like 7,000 people of all ages, races, and genders die every day in the USA.

At one time it was estimated that roughly 28% of those deaths are under the age of 19 so that we can count 5,040 of those daily deaths as responsible adults.

Jesus said that many are called and few chosen. If we reckon the many to be somewhere around 51% then we can estimate that 2,570 of of those 5,040 join the rich man every day of the week-- 24/7/365 --adding up to 938,050 condemned souls in one year; and that's just from the USA; not even reckoning with rest of the globe's population.

If we were to arbitrarily allot each trial ½ hour at Rev 20:11-15, it would take approximately 469,025 hours to try all 938,050 of the USA souls; or 19,543 twenty-four hour days totaling 53½ years. I'm pretty sure the rich man will be standing in line for quite a bit longer than that when we take into consideration the entire population of Hades going all the way back to the days of Cain and Abel

I once commented to a Christian friend that it seems almost impossible that God will ever get around to judging every man and woman who has ever lived. My friend replied: Well; he has plenty of time.
_

Post Reply