Finding evidence through experiment/experience

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Finding evidence through experiment/experience

Post #1

Post by William »

[yt]8VB6h_bWR3Y[/yt]

The video begins with the statement "You are not a human being with a soul. You are a soul which temporarily inhabits a human body."

As such, this can be regarded as a claim, but how is the claim to be tested?

The video is about Astral Projection and this subject is finding more and more interest in individuals who want to experience first hand something which is claimed to be real and able to be experienced by anyone who learns the how-to basics.

From my own experiences, AP has convinced me that I am more than just a human form, and that there is more to life than living, here on the planet and that when my body finally dies I will then experience 'the next level' - which is intimately connected with this present one.

I have also come to see that the 'soul' is simply one's personal experience as an individuate consciousness, and that ultimately all consciousnesses are interconnected.

Some of the key points in this particular video are:

1: By being able to project your consciousness outside of your body, you can witness things such as the earth being a sphere, or friends on the other side of the world and what they are doing.

2: AP is a phenomenon that is becoming rapidly more popular in the last 20 years...even more so in the last 5 years.

3: While APing one retains a high level of waking consciousness during the experience and one can remember that experience in every detail once you return to the physical body.

4: We all experience AP every night but most of this is on an unconscious level as we are not trained to remember them.

5: AP has always been known throughout human cultures since before recorded history. (It is my understanding that this is why religions evolved.)

6: The Astral body (spirit body), Egyptians called 'the light body' 'Ka'
Image
The Tibetan culture thinks of it as a body which houses the soul.

7: At least 1 in 10 people have experienced a conscious AP, either spontaneous or controlled.

8: Spontaneous OBEs can occur while sleeping, during sickness, under medications, during an accident, and while meditating.

9: Controlled OBEs are willful...deliberately induced by the individual.

10: All senses seem greatly magnified while APing.

11: There are a number of dimensional realities one can experience.

12: Things can be instantly manifested by simply thinking them into the reality.

13: The Astral Realm [AR] vibrates at a much higher frequency that the physical plain. Vibration throughout the physical body is common when one is entering into the APExperience.

14: There is no gravity in the AR - or if there is, the individuals Ka is not bound by it.

15: The AR is divided into 3 main sections which span across different dimensional 'overtones' and are usually known as 'Lower' Middle' and 'Higher' Astral Plains and their difference is noted in their vibration frequency.
Lower: More dark and primal.
Middle: Lighter. 'Rainbows and paradise' vivid colors and exquisite beauty.
Higher: Beyond comprehension (ability to describe using language etc) a pure 'angelic' realm. Where 'angels' reside.

16: The individual has to learn how to 'raise their frequency' in order to move from a lower dimension to a higher one and this requires conscious practice. One's personal vibrational tone is attracted by the corresponding frequency of the dimensional experience.

17: The higher the dimension, the less documentation because fewer people experience these and they are harder to describe.

Benefits of AP the video claims;
A: Gives the individual unique fist hand experience.
B: Allows the individual to explore beyond the limits of our physical universe and senses.
C: Enables first hand knowledge of our existence.
D: Connects us with our experiences in apparent past lives.
E: Helps us to identify reasons for existence.
F: Get to know ones self better
G: Self-cure certain illnesses
H: Overcome Traumas
I: Expand our sense of fraternity and universalism.
J: The fun of Flight
K: Meeting up with non-physical guides.
L: Overall well-being
M: Reduction in hostility
N: Increased psychic abilities
O: Accelerated personal development
P: Inner Calmness
Q: Increased quest for answers
R: Respect for life
S: Increased zest for life
T: Meeting deceased loved ones
U: Increased intelligence and memory recall
V: Increased knowledge and wisdom
W: Witnessing other realities
X: Increased self responsibility
Y: Increased spirituality
Z: Understanding of life after death of the body.

AP provides the individual with irrefutable personal evidence that we are immortal. The physical body dies but the consciousness lives forever.
Individuals having even one AP are transformed having a much greater insight into the existence of things beyond the physical.

Fear of death is simply fear of the unknown.

Heaven and Hell

When APing one realizes that one is in control of one's reality as this is more instantaneous.
Concepts of Heaven and Hell came from engaging with alternate realities while APing.
If you are a good personality, you will create a good reality.
If you are an evil personality, you will create an evil reality.

Heaven and Hell are in the same 'place' - and are what they are created to be, by the individuals who create them for themselves.

It is always about creating experiences for yourself. You are the designer and participator of the experience.

Lucid Dreaming

Becoming conscious while asleep. Already in the middle of a dream and being able to take control of it and direct it.

Astral Projection

Consciously leaving the body while in an awakened state (not dreaming).

Methods of Astral Projecting

There are myriads of resources on the internet which give various advice on how to achieve this.

The world of lucid dreaming, is one such resource given in the video.

Importantly, most people who have even experienced this once, are forever changed in their whole outlook of what they thought of as 'life' / 'living' and even those skeptical of this would best place that to one side while they investigate the claims and work towards inducing the experience for themselves, first hand.

There are scientists who have done this very thing and believe it to be authentic. They are regarded by many mainstream scientists as 'fringe' because of the subjective nature of the experiences, and the unusual subject (dealing with non physical realities) but within their own studies their approaches have been studiously scientific and they have concluded that there is enough repeat-ability and conformation from others who also experience APing subjectively that the combined similar experiences correlate enough to convince them that there is no reason to doubt the authenticity of alternate realities and their personal and ongoing experiences and study of those experiences within those realities.

My own experience in Out of Body projection is limited to three main incidences. The first two were a surprise and the third was a purposeful effort.

I have not ventured into the Astral Realm and have not fixated on wanting to adventure more outside of my body. As far as I am concerned those 3 experiences were enough to convince me of the validity of alternate realities and more importantly, that I am not the body I am presently occupied within, but am a conscious 'spirit' being who fully expects that when my body finally dies, that won't be the end of me or my experiences.

Knowing that, my primary focus for now, is with this life as a human being, passing on information which can be accepted or rejected by the reader, as they so choose and open to discussion and debate regarding ... well my Members Notes speak plainly to that.

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Post #2

Post by Neatras »

While some may say this is an ad hominem, I feel absolutely, 100% compelled to point out that Jordan, the creator of the video William posted, is an unreliable source of information.

Literally none of what he writes is scientifically justified.

Spirit Science is a culmination of literally every mythology and bad new age woo made to peddle his nonsense and sell snake oil. I have to make this very clear.

Spirit Science claims include:

1. Atlantis existed.
2. Jews are from space.
3. Martians invaded and tried to take over the world (of course!).
4. The pyramids were built from the top down.
5. The Egyptian government discovered, covered up, and tried to extort Paramount Pictures for money after discovering an underground city beneath the sphinx.
6. Crystals emit different types of energy that affect the human body or performance of mechanical objects.
7. Mary and Joseph, who were part of the Essene (which SS claims are Egyptian by origin) performed tantric spirit sex using astral projection to "bring a higher level being to this plane of existence" in the form of Jesus Christ.
8. Thothe, the Egyptian god of writing and knowledge, was actually a king of Atlantis that survived until about 15 years ago when he channeled all of his knowledge into Drunvalo Melchizedek (pictured here)
Image
9. Aliens (known as the greys) tried to take over the world 50 years ago, but were repelled when a Brazilian woman went under the sphinx, activated an ancient machine, and made all of the greys sick a la War of the Worlds style.
10. Every human has vortexes of energy (with no explanation given as to how this vortex apparently absorbs light).
11. Every human has a 3D invisible Jew Star surrounding their bodies that, if only we were spiritually scientific enough, we would be able to use to fly, go through space, and teleport.
12. When the earth's magnetic poles shift, the entire world goes through a pitch black "void" for 3 days, and the last time this happened humanity experienced mass amnesia because we didn't have our invisible Jew stars.
13. In the past, Egyptians were up to 16 feet tall. Their extra height is attributed to them having more chromosomes in their genome, apparently.
14. Emerald tablets that defy the laws of physics exist that apparently tell all of this, but you'd slay me if you actually told me where these could be found.
15. A "dimensional tear" happened in the past, causing countless "lower level spirits" to bond to human souls and inhabit them (for those paying attention, this is scientology, the concept of thetans).
16. There exists a "Christ Consciousness grid" around the planet for every species, and humans can artificially make one by erecting the various temples around the world.
17. Ahkenaton, one of the Egyptian pharaohs, was an interdimensional "Christ Consciousness" child.
18. Countless claims about how brainwaves emit frequencies (a total lack of understanding about what frequency is scientifically, but hey, it makes for good woo).
19. Physical illness is solely attributable to our individual psychology, and having a negative outlook on life is directly responsible for all disease.
20. The moon is hollow, and was put there by aliens.
21. Pythagoras learned geometry from the Egyptians and went on to found Greece himself.
22. So, so much more. He will intentionally parrot any new age con artist, believing it wholeheartedly because he has no filter that sorts out wrong ideas and so attempts to construct a narrative using everything he has ever heard that makes him feel good.

It's time we talk about Spirit Science as a whole.

Spirit Science is the culmination of countless mythological and new age ideas all compressed into a single self-contradictory and unintelligible narrative by a very odd man whose friends and compatriots are known to peddle their wares using him as a platform to try and market the idea of crystal healing, Orgone emitters, and any other new age "device" peddled over the last 100 years that have absolutely no evidence supporting their claims. Jordan appears not to understand that people are capable of lying and during America's formative years, it was easy to make up any nonsense you wanted to sell it so long as you were around scientifically illiterate people.

Spirit Science wants to combine every religion into one; Christianity, scientology, islam, judaism (space Jews, though...), Egyptian polytheism, all wrapped up in the claims by spiritual channelers over the last 100 years.

There has never been any evidence behind Spirit Science's claims, so this entire post by William is... Well, it amounts to random rambling.

William, you posted a lot of stuff about astral projection being a real thing. I know for a fact you have not provided any scientific evidence for the existence of souls or astral projection. Nothing peer reviewed, no citations.

This all amounts to assertion without evidence.

I sincerely hope I've kept my tone neutral throughout this, but I cannot abide anyone who would willingly prop up Spirit Science of all things, given their backwards nature regarding the study of reality.

Because he is unreliable in recounting history, and because he lacks any and all scientific literacy, claims he makes about spirit science are without merit. He simply does not have strength to his claims. But he attracts a large following anyway. I do not want his claims to pollute this forum.

Now then, with all that out of the way:
What is the question for debate?

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Post #3

Post by William »

[Replying to post 2 by Neatras]

Hi Neatras
William, you posted a lot of stuff about astral projection being a real thing. I know for a fact you have not provided any scientific evidence for the existence of souls or astral projection. Nothing peer reviewed, no citations.



Correct. I did mention that there were people doing the science, and also that mainstream scientists do not appear to be interested in the subject, or what evidence individual scientists might gain from learning how to consciously project out of their bodies and into alternate reality experience...alternate to their usual experience of life.
This all amounts to assertion without evidence.
The assertion is that one gains the evidence through one's own subjective experience. There are a great many individuals right now learning to do this and gathering together to share their experiences and through that, develop 'maps' in relation to alternate realities.
Much of that of course, I mentioned as points, in my OP. Perhaps you missed these?
I sincerely hope I've kept my tone neutral throughout this, but I cannot abide anyone who would willingly prop up Spirit Science of all things, given their backwards nature regarding the study of reality.
It is important for the reader to understand that the idea of the post was not to 'prop up' Spirit Science, but to open the discussion and debate the claims specific to the subject, which is Astral Projection...not 'Spirit Science'.
Because he is unreliable in recounting history, and because he lacks any and all scientific literacy, claims he makes about spirit science are without merit. He simply does not have strength to his claims. But he attracts a large following anyway. I do not want his claims to pollute this forum.
If the claims of Astral Project were his alone, then you would have a fair point. However you got distracted by my use of this particular video and your discontent with the makers of the video and all those other various claims you mentioned in your preamble regarding 'Spirit Science'. The OP is NOT about 'Spirit Science'

As I pointed out in my OP;

"There are myriads of resources on the internet which give various advice on how to achieve this." (Astral Projection) and in that, the point was that 'Spirit Science' is not the only platform out there which counsel the individual to try for themselves and see what experiences they can have which can change the way they think about themselves and the world they call 'reality.'

Thus - while you obviously feel disgust for 'Spirit Science' to the point where you have gone out of your way to proclaim that you do not want Jordan's claims 'polluting this forum', the focus is not on 'Spirit Science' or Jordan, but upon the reality of OOB Projection which can be willfully experienced by the individual, and the OP makes it quite clear that the invitation is for those who want evidence, to learn how to achieve this, and see for themselves.

I trust you don't have any issue with such an invitation as being something which 'pollutes this forum'.
Now then, with all that out of the way:
What is the question for debate?
The main things to debate are within the context of the OP. The claims which, - if the reader does some basic internet searching - she/he will find these are fairly standard throughout the internet to do with APing - so in that if you can put to one side your detest for 'Spirit Science' and focus on the actual subject, we can start there.

Your choice entirely. The Thread subject is;
Astral Projection.
Finding evidence through experiment/experience.

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Post #4

Post by Elijah John »

Neatras wrote: While some may say this is an ad hominem, I feel absolutely, 100% compelled to point out that Jordan, the creator of the video William posted, is an unreliable source of information.
Moderator Clarification

This is not an ad-hominem per se. To say that a public figure is "unreliable" is different than attacking their character by calling them a "liar" or somesuch. Plus you have provided support as to why you consider this person unreliable.

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Re: Finding evidence through experiment/experience

Post #5

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 1 by William]

Given this Astral Projection, I have information that two parts halfway back in the head behind the big memory parts of the brain have a left function on the left and a right function on the right. When both are directed forward, you go forward. When both are directed backwards, you go backwards. And left to left and right to right.

Isn't this incredible? That there are readied parts in our brains for travelling in soul-form, when soul outside the body! 8-)

Life is marvellous! :study:
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Re: Finding evidence through experiment/experience

Post #6

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

William wrote: [yt]8VB6h_bWR3Y[/yt]

The video begins with the statement "You are not a human being with a soul. You are a soul which temporarily inhabits a human body."

As such, this can be regarded as a claim, but how is the claim to be tested?

The video is about Astral Projection and this subject is finding more and more interest in individuals who want to experience first hand something which is claimed to be real and able to be experienced by anyone who learns the how-to basics.

From my own experiences, AP has convinced me that I am more than just a human form, and that there is more to life than living, here on the planet and that when my body finally dies I will then experience 'the next level' - which is intimately connected with this present one.

I have also come to see that the 'soul' is simply one's personal experience as an individuate consciousness, and that ultimately all consciousnesses are interconnected.

Some of the key points in this particular video are:

1: By being able to project your consciousness outside of your body, you can witness things such as the earth being a sphere, or friends on the other side of the world and what they are doing.

2: AP is a phenomenon that is becoming rapidly more popular in the last 20 years...even more so in the last 5 years.

3: While APing one retains a high level of waking consciousness during the experience and one can remember that experience in every detail once you return to the physical body.

4: We all experience AP every night but most of this is on an unconscious level as we are not trained to remember them.

5: AP has always been known throughout human cultures since before recorded history. (It is my understanding that this is why religions evolved.)

6: The Astral body (spirit body), Egyptians called 'the light body' 'Ka'
Image
The Tibetan culture thinks of it as a body which houses the soul.

7: At least 1 in 10 people have experienced a conscious AP, either spontaneous or controlled.

8: Spontaneous OBEs can occur while sleeping, during sickness, under medications, during an accident, and while meditating.

9: Controlled OBEs are willful...deliberately induced by the individual.

10: All senses seem greatly magnified while APing.

11: There are a number of dimensional realities one can experience.

12: Things can be instantly manifested by simply thinking them into the reality.

13: The Astral Realm [AR] vibrates at a much higher frequency that the physical plain. Vibration throughout the physical body is common when one is entering into the APExperience.

14: There is no gravity in the AR - or if there is, the individuals Ka is not bound by it.

15: The AR is divided into 3 main sections which span across different dimensional 'overtones' and are usually known as 'Lower' Middle' and 'Higher' Astral Plains and their difference is noted in their vibration frequency.
Lower: More dark and primal.
Middle: Lighter. 'Rainbows and paradise' vivid colors and exquisite beauty.
Higher: Beyond comprehension (ability to describe using language etc) a pure 'angelic' realm. Where 'angels' reside.

16: The individual has to learn how to 'raise their frequency' in order to move from a lower dimension to a higher one and this requires conscious practice. One's personal vibrational tone is attracted by the corresponding frequency of the dimensional experience.

17: The higher the dimension, the less documentation because fewer people experience these and they are harder to describe.

Benefits of AP the video claims;
A: Gives the individual unique fist hand experience.
B: Allows the individual to explore beyond the limits of our physical universe and senses.
C: Enables first hand knowledge of our existence.
D: Connects us with our experiences in apparent past lives.
E: Helps us to identify reasons for existence.
F: Get to know ones self better
G: Self-cure certain illnesses
H: Overcome Traumas
I: Expand our sense of fraternity and universalism.
J: The fun of Flight
K: Meeting up with non-physical guides.
L: Overall well-being
M: Reduction in hostility
N: Increased psychic abilities
O: Accelerated personal development
P: Inner Calmness
Q: Increased quest for answers
R: Respect for life
S: Increased zest for life
T: Meeting deceased loved ones
U: Increased intelligence and memory recall
V: Increased knowledge and wisdom
W: Witnessing other realities
X: Increased self responsibility
Y: Increased spirituality
Z: Understanding of life after death of the body.

AP provides the individual with irrefutable personal evidence that we are immortal. The physical body dies but the consciousness lives forever.
Individuals having even one AP are transformed having a much greater insight into the existence of things beyond the physical.

Fear of death is simply fear of the unknown.

Heaven and Hell

When APing one realizes that one is in control of one's reality as this is more instantaneous.
Concepts of Heaven and Hell came from engaging with alternate realities while APing.
If you are a good personality, you will create a good reality.
If you are an evil personality, you will create an evil reality.

Heaven and Hell are in the same 'place' - and are what they are created to be, by the individuals who create them for themselves.

It is always about creating experiences for yourself. You are the designer and participator of the experience.

Lucid Dreaming

Becoming conscious while asleep. Already in the middle of a dream and being able to take control of it and direct it.

Astral Projection

Consciously leaving the body while in an awakened state (not dreaming).

Methods of Astral Projecting

There are myriads of resources on the internet which give various advice on how to achieve this.

The world of lucid dreaming, is one such resource given in the video.

Importantly, most people who have even experienced this once, are forever changed in their whole outlook of what they thought of as 'life' / 'living' and even those skeptical of this would best place that to one side while they investigate the claims and work towards inducing the experience for themselves, first hand.

There are scientists who have done this very thing and believe it to be authentic. They are regarded by many mainstream scientists as 'fringe' because of the subjective nature of the experiences, and the unusual subject (dealing with non physical realities) but within their own studies their approaches have been studiously scientific and they have concluded that there is enough repeat-ability and conformation from others who also experience APing subjectively that the combined similar experiences correlate enough to convince them that there is no reason to doubt the authenticity of alternate realities and their personal and ongoing experiences and study of those experiences within those realities.

My own experience in Out of Body projection is limited to three main incidences. The first two were a surprise and the third was a purposeful effort.

I have not ventured into the Astral Realm and have not fixated on wanting to adventure more outside of my body. As far as I am concerned those 3 experiences were enough to convince me of the validity of alternate realities and more importantly, that I am not the body I am presently occupied within, but am a conscious 'spirit' being who fully expects that when my body finally dies, that won't be the end of me or my experiences.

Knowing that, my primary focus for now, is with this life as a human being, passing on information which can be accepted or rejected by the reader, as they so choose and open to discussion and debate regarding ... well my Members Notes speak plainly to that.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Post #7

Post by William »

I find it interesting and quite telling that something which can be examined and experienced by individuals and in that be evidence, is consigned to the 'Random Ramblings' section of the forum.

It is not the most honest move to make because the subject is not random or rambling and those who give it more than just a derisive hand-waved consignment as simply 'rambling' honor the will to truthfulness in doing so.

The reality of AP in relation to the human condition is more ancient than religion and has much to do with WHY humans evolved religions.

Specifically almost anyone can try this for themselves and see in that, the truth of the matter, (that is the idea of doing science after-all) which is more than can be said for most religious claims.

Therefore the choice I made in placing this in the Science and religion forum, was pertinent.

Hopefully the unnecessary consignment of this thread to RR won't dissuade the reader from taking an interest in the subject and debating and discussing it further.

eta;

I notice that there was a moderator clarifications . They serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received and/or are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels a clarification of the rules is required.

That there was a post report complaining that a public figure was attacked because of their character by calling them a "liar" is only one complaint about that particular post.
I myself reported the post #2 as being off topic and threatening to derail the thread as a result.
My report about the post has not been addressed and I feel it necessary that the reader understands that there was more than one report about the post.

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Re: Finding evidence through experiment/experience

Post #8

Post by William »

[Replying to post 6 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Can you please explain to the reader as to what relevance the link you made in you post has to do with the thread subject?

jgh7

Post #9

Post by jgh7 »

Is your belief that astral projection can be done voluntarily rather than accidentally once someone practices enough to master it?

If so, there should be no problem establishing scientific backing for it. The fact that there is no solid scientific backing leads me to be skeptical. Excuse my 1st grade understanding of the subject, but my idea is to get someone who has mastered it and put them in a room. Have them astral project and return and see if they can tell you what's in the room next to them. If this is reliably done, then boom the proof is in the pudding.

Now if it can't be mastered to the point of someone being able to voluntarily do it, then that's understandable. But if it can, then what's the excuse for no scientific backing? The tests to prove it shouldn't be hard and should be quite convincing should one successfully do them.

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Post #10

Post by William »

[Replying to post 9 by jgh7]
Is your belief that astral projection can be done voluntarily rather than accidentally once someone practices enough to master it?
By what I have read, yes it can be done voluntarily. More on that can be found here;

My Big TOE: Awakening

(Big Theory Of Everything)

The link leads to a sample of an on-line Unabridged Audiobook by Physicist Thomas W. Campbell

Homepage
If so, there should be no problem establishing scientific backing for it.
That would be up to the scientists.
The fact that there is no solid scientific backing leads me to be skeptical.
Do you apply the same skepticism for you own beliefs?
Excuse my 1st grade understanding of the subject, but my idea is to get someone who has mastered it and put them in a room. Have them astral project and return and see if they can tell you what's in the room next to them. If this is reliably done, then boom the proof is in the pudding.
Google 'Bi location'. Apparently this type of testing has been done but one cannot tell if it is the case or not as the science itself is not mainstream or published. Why not? Perhaps because people are content with their 1st grade status on the subject for one. Other reasons may include such things as funding priorities and general interest in such things. The secular world isn't all that interested in the subject and various religions have their views on it and some even warn people not to do it.
Now if it can't be mastered to the point of someone being able to voluntarily do it, then that's understandable. But if it can, then what's the excuse for no scientific backing? The tests to prove it shouldn't be hard and should be quite convincing should one successfully do them.
While I certainly appreciate your view here, the point of the thread is for the individual to acquire their own evidence rather than even rely on what they are told by those like myself or by the scientific community about this.

To stress the point re your argument.

What if secular science did take an active investigative interest in this and develop ways in which to test it, and in doing so gained irrefutable evidence that this was a genuine thing?

What would you personally think about it?
How would it change your outlook on life and your current beliefs?
How do you think that the knowledge would effect the human population?

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