If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[WebersHome]

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My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego, Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September 1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi-retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself serving Christ's best interests, he was actually serving the Devil's.
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[Divine Insight]

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself serving Christ's best interests, he was actually serving the Devil's.

This should tell you volumes.

What kind of a hideous Creator God would create a world in which people sincerely believe that they are doing God's will, only to discover after they die that all of their sincere work was for naught and that they will be spending the rest of eternity in horror?

I think you've just revealed the fallacy of every possible faction of Christianity and Islam right there.

[WebersHome]

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I sincerely believe that Jesus Christ is a man of integrity who would never knowingly mislead people. In point of fact, I'm convinced that that everything he taught originated with God, whom I also sincerely believe to be a person of integrity who would never knowingly mislead people.

â—� John 3:34 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit

â—� John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

â—� John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me.

â—� John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jesus, speaking for God, instructed a Samarian woman that she could obtain a living water merely by asking him for it. I've done that; but I don't know whether my deceased brother ever did.

Jesus, yet speaking for God, instructed his countrymen that whoever believes in him would be given to drink of the Spirit within the very core of their being if all they did was approach him for it. I've done that too; but again, I don't know if my deceased brother ever did.

So if John 4:10-14 is true and reliable, and if John 7:37-39 is true and reliable; then I have successfully obtained the living water, and I have also successfully obtained the Spirit within the very core of my being.

The living water and the Spirit, are essential components of my baptism into Jesus' body.

â—� 1Cor 12:13 . .We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free --and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

The awful irony of the standard Christian baptism is that not everyone who undergoes it will make it to safety when they pass on; and that's because they failed to obtain the Spirit and the living water about which Jesus spoke in John 4:10-14 and John 7:37-39.[/font]

[font=Georgia]NOTE[/font][font=Verdana]: It's risky to depend upon the standard Christian baptism for obtaining the Spirit and the living water; no, play it safe and do as I have done: speak up for them as Jesus instructed and get the water and the Spirit locked in.

â—� John 6:37 . . Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me

â—� Rom 10:13 . . Everyone who calls on the name of The Lord will be saved.
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[Divine Insight]

Jesus, speaking for God, instructed a Samarian woman that she could obtain a living water merely by asking him for it. I've done that; but I don't know whether my deceased brother ever did.

Jesus, yet speaking for God, instructed his countrymen that whoever believes in him would be given to drink of the Spirit within the very core of their being if all they did was approach him for it. I've done that too; but again, I don't know if my deceased brother ever did.

So then you are convinced that this has nothing at all to do with morality, but instead has only to do with whether or not you have properly asked Jesus to be given a drink of the Spirit?

Also, if you have been giving a "drink of the Spirit" shouldn't you then also have confidence of knowing truth? Why should you be so confused about whether or not your brother was also saved?

Was your brother a bad man? If not, then what happened to morality and righteousness?

The awful irony of the standard Christian baptism is that not everyone who undergoes it will make it to safety when they pass on; and that's because they failed to obtain the Spirit and the living water about which Jesus spoke in John 4:10-14 and John 7:37-39.

NOTE: It's risky to depend upon the standard Christian baptism for obtaining the Spirit and the living water; no, play it safe and do as I have done: speak up for them as Jesus instructed and get the water and the Spirit locked in.

"Play it safe"? This sounds like you're gambling on Pascal's wager to avoid damnation and lock in your bid for eternal life. Are you sure this is the correct "Spirit" that Jesus was asking people to have?

What is morality and righteousness in this view?

Can anyone just believe in Jesus and ask for a drink of the Spirit and be granted eternal life no matter how immoral or unrighteous they might be?

I'm just asking for the purpose of trying to understand your perceptions of these ancient superstitious myths. It sounds like they have you deeply concerned about the eternal fate of your brother.

If I believe in Jesus and that Jesus was trustworthy, and I believed that my brother was a decent moral person, I wouldn't be worried about the eternal fate of my brother even if he was an atheist and didn't believe in the religion at all.

After all, if you can't trust Jesus to save decent moral people, then what exactly can you trust him for?

It appears to me that I have more "trust" in Jesus than you do, even though I acknowledge him to be nothing more than a mythological figure. No to suggest that there wasn't a real person named Jesus. My position is simply that any real Jesus that might have lived is not the same as the mythological Jesus created by the authors of the Gospels.

In any case, if there exists a righteous trustworthy God, then I wouldn't waste my time worrying whether or not any decent persons had been "saved" from damnation.

It appears to me that Christians distrust their God more than I would to be sure.

Why would you question the righteousness of Jesus?

Or is it the righteousness of your brother than you are questioning?

Either way it seems to me that your religion has your worrying about things you shouldn't need to be worried about.

Of what value is a religion that has you worrying that your brother might have been condemned to hell simply because he might have misunderstood Jesus?

Does this really make sense?

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 1 by WebersHome]

I would rather point to the fact that religious views and practices are of universal concern all over the planet.

Despite the nonsense from "Atheists" over the right God among all the gods, supposedly, the thing is, one grows up with religion and if there is such a novelty to find, then one has a good reason to leave the religion in question. Generally, they do not!

So growing up in the Middle East: Judaist, Muslim or Christian? I don't think it matters so much.

Happy life in God's name!

[WebersHome]

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According to Jesus' statements at John 3:3-8, it's necessary for people to undergo a birth by water and by the Spirit in order to enter and/or see the kingdom of God.

Well; if perchance my deceased brother somehow failed to obtain the water Jesus spoke about to the Samarian women in John 4:10-14, and the Spirit that he spoke of to his countrymen in John 7:37-39, then I would have to conclude that my brother didn't make it to safety when he passed away even after 53 years of life on earth as a Priest/Friar because to my knowledge, there are no exceptions to the rule.[/font]

[font=Georgia]FYI[/font][font=Verdana]: Newcomers to the thread curious about my deceased brother can find some information about him back at the very beginning in post No.1

Information related to the water and the Spirit can be found in post No.3
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[WebersHome]

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Larry and I didn't grow up together. We had the same father but not the same mother.

I was taken to visit Larry just once when we were both young boys. I did not see him again until I was seventeen when he and our dad gave me a surprise send-off to the Army in August of 1961.

From thence, our lives took very different directions. Larry went on to pursue a vocation with the Catholic Church, and I went on to become a soldier and a welder.

Now the thing is this: Larry entered the priesthood under false pretenses. He never revealed his mother's divorce, nor did he ever reveal that he had siblings. Plus his mom was connected. She managed to get Larry's birth record altered so that her new husband appeared to be Larry's real father.

Larry was ambitious. He wanted to go far with the Catholic Church and figured his chances would be better if Rome didn't know too much about him. Long story short; it was Larry's wish that I keep a distance to avoid the risk of exposure. Larry dropped off the radar, and I lost contact with him for the next 54 years till we Googled him in 2015. In point of fact, were it not for the internet, Larry and I probably never would've found each other again.

Because of all the secrecy; I was unable to speak with my brother about religion till just three years prior to his death via email. However, when I did; Larry, without saying why, went dark and stopped communicating with me; and I only found out about his illness and his death just recently when we Googled him once again.

My one lasting regret is that Larry didn't contact me about his illness so we could've at least said our good-byes before he passed away.
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[WebersHome]

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Rome's interpretation of Philippians 2:12 pretty much echoes Santa Claus' holiday practices. For example the lyrics from the classic jingle: Santa Claus Is Coming To Town.

You better watch out, you better not cry,
Better not pout, I'm telling you why:
Santa Claus is coming to town

He's making a list, and checking it twice;
Gonna find out who's naughty and nice:
Santa Claus is coming to town.

He sees you when you're sleeping,
He knows when you're awake,
He knows if you've been bad or good,
So be good for goodness sake!

There's no grace in that song-- none at all --no generosity, no altruism, no kindness, no charity, no love, no peace, no understanding, no sympathy, no patience, no tolerance, no courtesy, no compassion, no forgiveness, viz: there are no gifts in Santa's bag; only merit awards for those who prove themselves worthy enough to deserve them.

But we know from other passages that an exemption from the sum of all fears isn't a merit award, rather; it's a totally free-of-charge rescue from the wrath of God by means of the ransom that Christ himself paid with his own life's blood rather than out of the sinner's pockets, so to speak. In point of fact the Greek word soteria, from which is translated "salvation" means rescue, i.e. remove from peril.

But now once the sinner is removed from the peril of the sum of all fears, he's expected to begin developing a life of piety (a.k.a. holiness) which serves an altogether different purpose in the plan of salvation than escaping the wrath of God.

The phrase "fear and trembling" was one of Paul's favorite colloquialisms; for example:

â—� 1Cor 2:3-4 . . For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.

And another:

â—� Eph 6:5-8 . . Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; not with eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, with goodwill doing service, as to The Lord, and not to men

"fear, and in trembling" doesn't mean Paul recommends shivering in terror and anxiety like a frightened gerbil; but that a believer's attitude should be free of pride, arrogance, and conceit, i.e. free of a superiority complex and/or a master-race mentality; for example:

Paul was very courteous to the Corinthians, and made himself of no reputation at all, even though he was one of The Lord's hand-picked apostles and they were a bunch of pagan heathens at the time who deserved nothing but the cold shoulder. Paul's attitude rubbed off on the Corinthians because they in turn deferred to Paul's associates with fear and trembling just as he had treated them all at one time.

â—� 2Cor 7:14-15 . . I had boasted to [Titus] about you, and you have not embarrassed me. But just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting about you to Titus has proved to be true as well. And his affection for you is all the greater when he remembers that you were all obedient, receiving him with fear and trembling.

So then, what we're talking about here with "fear and trembling" is honor, respect, submission, deference, and reverence rather than terror and anxiety; and it's actually one of the Beatitudes.

â—� Matt 5:3 . . Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

One of the basic components of "poor in spirit" is courtesy; which is grossly lacking on many of today's forums. People on the internet are just too cruel to each other; even people wearing the Christian label. Apparently what they don't know is that their behavior reflects on Christ and makes him look bad.

Take for example David's tryst with Bathsheba that resulted in the death of her husband. Nathan the prophet informed David that his conduct reflected on The Lord so that instead of bringing glory to God, his conduct brought disgrace. (2Sam 12:14)

â—� Matt 5:16 . . Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
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[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 8 by WebersHome]

Condolences. Your story is sad -- but is secrecy and subterfuge associated with the RCC surprising / unexpected?

BTW, you were going into the military the year I was discharged (three year enlistment).