Evidence for God through Feeling/Analogy

[Dimmesdale]

I'm definitely not the first one to think of this, though I haven't come across it as far as I can remember. Nevertheless, it seems like a very natural interpretation that someone before me must have considered.

Why does there exist analogy with regard to things like thoughts and feelings and physical objects or processes? For instance, why is there a felt correspondence between fire and the idea/feeling of passion, or a correspondence/correlation between thunder and lightning, and the idea/feeling of anger? Or a resemblance between love and light? Why should such connections exist? Are they merely subjective illusions or do they point to something deeper?

My take is that there is an essence, an objective aspect to such things which point to a Mind behind physical phenomena. Just as physical things reflect our own concepts back at us, just so I think that the things themselves are a product of Mind. Otherwise, they wouldn't have the analogous properties that they do have. This plays into the idea that human beings are image-bearers of God. We can conceive of things, and in that sense are creators to a more limited extent. I might be going out on a limb here, and this certainly isn't a rock-solid argument, but I still think I'm on to something. After all, why should these things dove-tail so nicely in so many cases?

Any thoughts?

[Divine Insight]

What good would being petrified with fear help, if it were true?
That was my point.

I don't recall saying that it would help. I would just imagine that any normal human who knew with certainty that they were about to face an eternity of torture by a sadistic demon would most likely experience some level of anxiety (i.e. fear)

May I inquire as to why you are focused on this particular point?

And if it were true, why would only those who are not good and compassionate have something to worry about in that situation?

If you go back and reread my post you'll see that I was talking about a good and compassionate God in that case.

[William]

William: What good would being petrified with fear help, if it were true?
That was my point.

Divine Insight: I would just imagine that any normal human who knew with certainty that they were about to face an eternity of torture by a sadistic demon would most likely experience some level of anxiety (i.e. fear)


May I inquire as to why you are focused on this particular point?


William: From my studies on the subject, individual attitudes and beliefs - both things involving emotion - have a great influence on how things unfold for the individual in the next phase and that it is the individual who creates their reality based upon their beliefs and attitudes.
On that - if it is actually the case - fear-based beliefs would not serve the individual well.

I also allow for the possibility that those who live their lives absolutely convinced that when they die, that is the end of them - are prone to fear-based responses to the next experience and in that, instantaneously manifest their fears as something to be experienced as real...and take on the form of unholy monsters and fiery hells and an enthroned entity sitting in judgement of them...which is to say....fear of imagined possible monsters could have serious detrimental effects on the fearful individuals next experience.



Divine Insight: If you go back and reread my post you'll see that I was talking about a good and compassionate God in that case.

William: Which tells me that you at least believe that a good and compassionate GOD might be something to fear, at least by those who are not good and compassionate.

If it is true that each individual manifests their own afterlife experience based upon their attitudes and beliefs then any who are not good and compassionate are unlikely to conjure up any GOD-being which was.

[Divine Insight]

Divine Insight: If you go back and reread my post you'll see that I was talking about a good and compassionate God in that case.

William: Which tells me that you at least believe that a good and compassionate GOD might be something to fear, at least by those who are not good and compassionate.

Again you are jumping to incorrect and non-sequitur conclusions about what I might "believe".

It's not what I "believe", but rather it's what these religious dogmas teach. Are you unaware that that the Bible is constantly threatening people with the "wrath" of their supposedly "good and compassionate God". Even the Christian New Testament has Jesus decreeing that certain people will be cast into everlasting punishment.

So it's these dogmas that teach these negative aspects of a supposedly "good and compassionate God". I'm basically just allowing for the teachings of those dogmas. It doesn't follow from this that I actually "believe" them. In fact, I hold that these dogmas were purposefully designed to use the fear of this potential curse from God as a psychological tool to get people to do as the religion demands in an attempt to appease the wrath of this God.

So I was just referencing scenarios that might cause some people to have justified fears if they accepted what these dogmas claim as truth.

You appear to be trying to make everything personal about me specifically.

Why do you do that?

I strongly suggest that you cease and desist your personal accusations aimed at trying to twist my generalized posts into fraudulent conclusions about what I might personally believe based on what you have wrongfully invented in your own mind via non-sequitur thinking.

Thank you.

By the way, if you want to know why the masses fall for these kind of dogma fear tactics you'll need to ask them. In case you haven't noticed, I haven't fallen for these religious fear tactics. I don't associate with, or support, any of these fear mongering religions.

[William]

[Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]

Divine Insight: I'm confident in the quality of my character that if there's a life after death I'll be whisked into a far better world than this one to be sure. I have absolutely no fear of being punished as I have done nothing to deserve such a fate...
...So it doesn't matter to me what my destiny will be in this reality. Barring an evil creator who created humans solely to torture them for no good reason I really have nothing to fear.

William: In that, I am picking up that you have that one fear.
If so, then the latter appears to contradict the former...
...Is there any logical reason for one to hold such a fear?

Divine Insight: My point was that if this was the truth of reality and we were to discover that this is the truth, then it would indeed constitute good reason for everyone to be petrified in fear.


William: What good would being petrified with fear help, if it were true?
That was my point.
And if it were true, why would only those who are not good and compassionate have something to worry about in that situation?


Divine Insight: I would just imagine that any normal human who knew with certainty that they were about to face an eternity of torture by a sadistic demon would most likely experience some level of anxiety (i.e. fear)

May I inquire as to why you are focused on this particular point?


William: From my studies on the subject, individual attitudes and beliefs - both things involving emotion - have a great influence on how things unfold for the individual in the next phase and that it is the individual who creates their reality based upon their beliefs and attitudes.
On that - if it is actually the case - fear-based beliefs would not serve the individual well.

I also allow for the possibility that those who live their lives absolutely convinced that when they die, that is the end of them - are prone to fear-based responses to the next experience and in that, instantaneously manifest their fears as something to be experienced as real...and take on the form of unholy monsters and fiery hells and an enthroned entity sitting in judgement of them...which is to say....fear of imagined possible monsters could have serious detrimental effects on the fearful individuals next experience.


Divine Insight: If you go back and reread my post you'll see that I was talking about a good and compassionate God in that case.


William: Which tells me that you at least believe that a good and compassionate GOD might be something to fear, at least by those who are not good and compassionate.


Divine Insight: Again you are jumping to incorrect and non-sequitur conclusions about what I might "believe".


William: Okay I see the problem here. It is a minor fix.
In relation to the context of my posts, I am referring to the individuals beliefs in relation to how these appear to effect the outcomes related to the idea of what is commonly referred to as "afterlife" experience, so I was using the word "you" as in "the individual".
What your personal beliefs and attitudes may be, is not something of interest to me, in this context. All I am pointing out is that whatever they might be, these will have an effect on the outcome of ones experience in the next phase, when it occurs - should a next phase experience turn out to be a reality.

As also previously stated, this idea is based on my studies to do with the subject.It appears in every case that this is the common denominator from which there is no escaping ones beliefs and attitudes which were nurtured and reared in this present phase.

Divine Insight: It's not what I "believe", but rather it's what these religious dogmas teach. Are you unaware that that the Bible is constantly threatening people with the "wrath" of their supposedly "good and compassionate God". Even the Christian New Testament has Jesus decreeing that certain people will be cast into everlasting punishment.

William: I am aware of the problem of fixating upon one limited aspect of ones particular interpretation of one religions idea of GOD.
In relation to the idea that ones beliefs and attitudes effect the outcome of ones experience in the next phase, it doesn't matter how different the beliefs vary from branch to branch of said religion as a Jehovah's Witness will experience a different outcome than a Catholic, etc et al.

This means that it doesn't matter what you think or believe about their positions and ideas of GOD, in relation to what it is that they will experience in the next phase.
What you personally think and believe about those others, is only consequential to you in relation to how such attitudes translate into self-created experience in the next phase.

Divine Insight:So it's these dogmas that teach these negative aspects of a supposedly "good and compassionate God". I'm basically just allowing for the teachings of those dogmas. It doesn't follow from this that I actually "believe" them. In fact, I hold that these dogmas were purposefully designed to use the fear of this potential curse from God as a psychological tool to get people to do as the religion demands in an attempt to appease the wrath of this God.

So I was just referencing scenarios that might cause some people to have justified fears if they accepted what these dogmas claim as truth.

William: And my responding is an effort to offer the reader information which might assist them should it be the case.
The Christian Dogma's can indeed have a negative effect upon any whom are fixated on those aspects of said dogma which help shape negative beliefs and attitudes etc which contribute toward that individuals nurturing and rearing these, in this present phase.

This - logically - would present a problem for anyone harboring such attitudes who also firmly believe there is going to be no 'afterlife' to experience, if upon expiring from this phase, they find themselves very much still experiencing the next, and any fears which they allowed Christianity to place into the mix, are very likely to manifest themselves as realities.
The way to avoid any such outcome from occurring would be to work on eliminating it from ones psyche while still in this, the present phase situation.

[Wootah]

Moderator Comment
Hi DI

You seem to have made this personal by mentioning your character first.

It can feel personal to have our views examined and I feel William has been polite and civil.

Best to not mention your own beliefs if you don't want them debated on a debate site.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Divine Insight]

William: In that, I am picking up that you have that one fear.
If so, then the latter appears to contradict the former...
...Is there any logical reason for one to hold such a fear?

I believe that I had already corrected you on this repeatedly. I do not have a fear that an evil creator exists. And no, I know of no logical reason why anyone should hold such a fear.

Please correct your misunderstanding on this. Thank you.

William: What good would being petrified with fear help, if it were true?

I never said that it would do anyone any good. Humans tend to become anxious (i.e. experience the emotion of fear) when they know that something horrible is about to happen to them. I don't think any humans believe that having fear is going to help anything. So why are you asking me these questions?

It was never my position that fear would help anyone with anything. I simply never said that.

William: From my studies on the subject, individual attitudes and beliefs - both things involving emotion - have a great influence on how things unfold for the individual in the next phase and that it is the individual who creates their reality based upon their beliefs and attitudes.
On that - if it is actually the case - fear-based beliefs would not serve the individual well.

Studies on humans only reflect generalized results. Individual human behaviors and reactions may differ widely.

William: I also allow for the possibility that those who live their lives absolutely convinced that when they die, that is the end of them - are prone to fear-based responses to the next experience and in that, instantaneously manifest their fears as something to be experienced as real...and take on the form of unholy monsters and fiery hells and an enthroned entity sitting in judgement of them...which is to say....fear of imagined possible monsters could have serious detrimental effects on the fearful individuals next experience.

Opinion noted.

William: Which tells me that you at least believe that a good and compassionate GOD might be something to fear, at least by those who are not good and compassionate.

This is what religious dogma teaches. So why are you associating what religious dogmas teach with what you imagine I might believe when you know full well that I tend to reject religious dogma as fiction?

In truth I see no reason why a good and compassionate God would ever harm anyone. But then again, I can't imagine a good and compassionate God creating a world filled with suffering and child abuse either. So the most rational conclusion is that no good and compassionate gods exist.

William: Okay I see the problem here. It is a minor fix.
In relation to the context of my posts, I am referring to the individuals beliefs in relation to how these appear to effect the outcomes related to the idea of what is commonly referred to as "afterlife" experience, so I was using the word "you" as in "the individual".
What your personal beliefs and attitudes may be, is not something of interest to me, in this context. All I am pointing out is that whatever they might be, these will have an effect on the outcome of ones experience in the next phase, when it occurs - should a next phase experience turn out to be a reality.

Unlike you I do not share the belief that what a person believes in this life is likely to have any effect on any afterlife they might experience should an afterlife happen to exist.

William: As also previously stated, this idea is based on my studies to do with the subject.It appears in every case that this is the common denominator from which there is no escaping ones beliefs and attitudes which were nurtured and reared in this present phase.

Your beliefs noted. But not shared.

William: I am aware of the problem of fixating upon one limited aspect of ones particular interpretation of one religions idea of GOD.
In relation to the idea that ones beliefs and attitudes effect the outcome of ones experience in the next phase, it doesn't matter how different the beliefs vary from branch to branch of said religion as a Jehovah's Witness will experience a different outcome than a Catholic, etc et al.

This means that it doesn't matter what you think or believe about their positions and ideas of GOD, in relation to what it is that they will experience in the next phase.
What you personally think and believe about those others, is only consequential to you in relation to how such attitudes translate into self-created experience in the next phase.

Opinions noted.

William: And my responding is an effort to offer the reader information which might assist them should it be the case.
The Christian Dogma's can indeed have a negative effect upon any whom are fixated on those aspects of said dogma which help shape negative beliefs and attitudes etc which contribute toward that individuals nurturing and rearing these, in this present phase.

This - logically - would present a problem for anyone harboring such attitudes who also firmly believe there is going to be no 'afterlife' to experience, if upon expiring from this phase, they find themselves very much still experiencing the next, and any fears which they allowed Christianity to place into the mix, are very likely to manifest themselves as realities.
The way to avoid any such outcome from occurring would be to work on eliminating it from ones psyche while still in this, the present phase situation.

Again. Opinions noted.

[William]

William: Which tells me that you at least believe that a good and compassionate GOD might be something to fear, at least by those who are not good and compassionate.

Divine Insight: I believe that I had already corrected you on this repeatedly. I do not have a fear that an evil creator exists. And no, I know of no logical reason why anyone should hold such a fear.

Please correct your misunderstanding on this. Thank you.

William: Context is important. Often when people habitually quote others, it can be out of context so I like to bring the context back so that the conversation can be followed easier by the reader.
In that, you should be able to identify where I have accepted your position and corrected any misunderstanding on it, when I noted in my last post;

• "Okay I see the problem here. It is a minor fix.
  In relation to the context of my posts, I am referring to the individuals beliefs in relation to how these appear to effect the outcomes related to the idea of what is commonly referred to as "afterlife" experience, so I was using the word "you" as in "the individual".
  What your personal beliefs and attitudes may be, is not something of interest to me, in this context. All I am pointing out is that whatever they might be, these will have an effect on the outcome of ones experience in the next phase, when it occurs - should a next phase experience turn out to be a reality."

William: What good would being petrified with fear help, if it were true?

Divine Insight: It was never my position that fear would help anyone with anything. I simply never said that.

William: I never said that it was your position DI. I simply asked a question. Indeed, the question was aimed to a general audience rather than just asked of you.

• William: From my studies on the subject, individual attitudes and beliefs - both things involving emotion - have a great influence on how things unfold for the individual in the next phase and that it is the individual who creates their reality based upon their beliefs and attitudes.
  On that - if it is actually the case - fear-based beliefs would not serve the individual well.

Divine Insight: Studies on humans only reflect generalized results. Individual human behaviors and reactions may differ widely.

William: Indeed, that is why all the stories are unique to the individuals experiencing them. The apparent sameness has to do with the seeming foundation principle of the experiences as something being created in relation to individual attitudes and beliefs etc.