Evidence for God through Feeling/Analogy

[Dimmesdale]

I'm definitely not the first one to think of this, though I haven't come across it as far as I can remember. Nevertheless, it seems like a very natural interpretation that someone before me must have considered.

Why does there exist analogy with regard to things like thoughts and feelings and physical objects or processes? For instance, why is there a felt correspondence between fire and the idea/feeling of passion, or a correspondence/correlation between thunder and lightning, and the idea/feeling of anger? Or a resemblance between love and light? Why should such connections exist? Are they merely subjective illusions or do they point to something deeper?

My take is that there is an essence, an objective aspect to such things which point to a Mind behind physical phenomena. Just as physical things reflect our own concepts back at us, just so I think that the things themselves are a product of Mind. Otherwise, they wouldn't have the analogous properties that they do have. This plays into the idea that human beings are image-bearers of God. We can conceive of things, and in that sense are creators to a more limited extent. I might be going out on a limb here, and this certainly isn't a rock-solid argument, but I still think I'm on to something. After all, why should these things dove-tail so nicely in so many cases?

Any thoughts?

[Dimmesdale]

Of course, one COULD take the Kantian approach and say that the human mind CONTRIBUTES to the subjective perception of outside phenomena, and that, for instance, the experience of seeing a volcano is tied-down solely to our own biology and brain-filters.

But this approach strikes me as lazy and uninspired. I dunno.

[Divine Insight]

After all, why should these things dove-tail so nicely in so many cases?

I personally don't see any mystery here. It seems obvious to me whey we as humans would make these subjective connections and analogies. After all, they aren't entirely subjective, as I'll try to illustrate below:

Why does there exist analogy with regard to things like thoughts and feelings and physical objects or processes?

Because these analogies simply make sense.

For instance, why is there a felt correspondence between fire and the idea/feeling of passion.

My observation would be that fire shows a lot of the same traits as passion. It grows, it's energetic, it's powerful, it's "hot", etc. I can see passion being more easily related to heat rather than cold. Things that are cold tend to be lethargic while things that are hot tend to be energetic. Passion is more energetic than lethargic.

But the way, let's not forget that humans also make a connection between fire and doom. Including the fiery pits of hell. So it's not like they've only created one analogy with fire.

or a correspondence/correlation between thunder and lightning, and the idea/feeling of anger?

Because thunder and lightening instill the feeling that some angry all-powerful being might be trying to destroy us. Also when we get angry we tend to raise our voice, shout, and often even throw things at other people. So it's an obvious analogy to connect thunder and lighting with being angry I think. No mystery there.

Or a resemblance between love and light?

I can't imagine anyone who's been lost in a dark cave not feeling much better when they finally escape into the wide open spaces of daylight. Same is even true of the mere difference between night and day. Think of living in the wild like ancient people did. Which would you be more likely to associate with love? Night or day?

By the way, I should point out that there are actually traditions that associate the night and moonlight with love, rather than associating love with the bright light of the sun. So this particular analogy isn't even necessarily consistent throughout human cultures.

Why should such connections exist? Are they merely subjective illusions or do they point to something deeper?

I see no reason to call them illusions. They are simply connections that humans have made. I don't see where there is any reason to suggesting anything deeper than what I have already mentioned above.

I might be going out on a limb here, and this certainly isn't a rock-solid argument, but I still think I'm on to something. After all, why should these things dove-tail so nicely in so many cases?

Any thoughts?

What do you think you're on to? Are you going to suggest that thunder and lightening actually do have something to do with fear and anger other than how humans might react to this natural phenomenon?

Are you going to suggest that light actually has something to do with love?

And if so, would you then be suggesting that darkness has something to do with hate?

And fire actually has something to do with human passion?

I think you would be very hard-pressed to try to establish any actual connections between these natural phenomena and human emotions beyond the connections that humans themselves have assigned to them.

I see no reason to postulate that these connections are anything more than humans just projecting their own experiences onto these various forms of natural phenomena.

Do you have anything to offer beyond a mere "hunch"?

How would you even go about determining any deeper connections?

If you want to take this further that's the question you would need to face next.

How do you establish anything more than what I've already suggested?

[Dimmesdale]

Huh.



Looks like, if I really think about it, I do only have a hunch. I don't know how to respond to you. I actually had a good laugh over your rebuttal. I thought I was onto something MORE. But, I take myself less seriously now so it doesn't hurt to prove I'm wrong! x)

[Divine Insight]

You're not alone. I once had a hunch that I could prove that Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity is wrong. And after years of college courses and lots of studying and mathematics I was finally able to prove with 100% confidence that my hunch was wrong.

[Dimmesdale]

[Replying to post 5 by Divine Insight]

My biggest problem is my lack of focus and inability to form thought that's very coherent. I'm too impressionistic. I look at things at a surface level. And yet in my mind I want to fit the universe of knowledge into my brain and put God as the cherry on top of it.... I don't know. I don't have the patience or discipline to properly educate myself and I see it as a lost cause because "nothing sticks."

I try to pray and meditate though. And do some exercising to combat my ballooning weight. Sometimes I get depressed because that's the extent of my significance. I just want nothing but the very best.....

[Divine Insight]

I'm too impressionistic.

There's no such thing as being "too impressionistic" unless you yourself endorse and support that idea. After all, you're the one who just made that judgement call. Why not instead change your thinking and decree, "I'm exactly at the perfect level of being impressionist, not too much, and not too little" any anyone who says otherwise is a wart frog.

Take control of your psychological universe. You own it! It's yours to do with as you wish. Don't let anyone take that away from you.

You don't need to prove that there is evidence for the existence of a God. Believing in a god simply because you feel that this is the essence of reality is GOOD ENOUGH! Right? After all your feelings count just as much as anyone else's.

Just don't get arrogant about it and start going around preaching to others that they need to feel the same way you do and you'll be just fine.

You don't need to defend your feelings or beliefs to anyone.

Is someone else says there's no gods, just say, "Fine. I really don't give a hoot what you think".

Don't let anyone try to convince you that there is no God, or angles, or higher beings, or afterlife, or whatever you would like to believe in. Just believe in it and let everyone else believe whatever they want to believe.

I talk to the sun and the moon all the time. Yes, I know the sun is just a ball of gas and the moon is just a lump of rock. But for me they symbolize gateways to a higher dimensional existence. They represent the eyes and ears of the powers that be.

I have no clue what the truth of reality is. I have accepted "Que sara sara". Whatever will be, will be. And nothing I think or believe will change my destiny.

I'm confident in the quality of my character that if there's a life after death I'll be whisked into a far better world than this one to be sure. I have absolutely no fear of being punished as I have done nothing to deserve such a fate.

And if my death is nonexistence then there's nothing to fear for when I die I'll not only not know that I'm dead, but I also won't know that I had ever lived at all. In short, if death is the end of existence then dying is a piece of cake and nothing to fear.

So it doesn't matter to me what my destiny will be in this reality. Barring an evil creator who created humans solely to torture them for no good reason I really have nothing to fear.

What about an active god that can help me from day to day. I already have one of those. It's me.

There's two of me and I talk with myself all the time. And this has actually been shown to be the case within the human brain.

Here, watch this video just for the fun of it. I'm not saying this guy knows what he's talking about, nor am I saying he doesn't. Remember, I suggested that you watch the video for the "Fun of it". Period.

He's a secular "believer" who believes in the god in his brain. It's kind of a unique presentation: Certainly enjoyable to watch if nothing else. At least I think so.

[youtube][/youtube]

Then go create a god of your own within your own brain and your god will be as real as your brain. Can't beat that.

[William]

William: Kudos for your well written post DI.

Just one question arises from that.

Your wrote:

Divine Insight: I'm confident in the quality of my character that if there's a life after death I'll be whisked into a far better world than this one to be sure. I have absolutely no fear of being punished as I have done nothing to deserve such a fate.

William: A little further on you write;

Divine Insight: So it doesn't matter to me what my destiny will be in this reality. Barring an evil creator who created humans solely to torture them for no good reason I really have nothing to fear.


William: In that, I am picking up that you have that one fear.
If so, then the latter appears to contradict the former.

I am wondering if the actual fear you have, might effect the way in which the afterlife unfolds for you , should its existence be confirmed for you in the eventual moment of your current reality transforming into some other reality.

It's not actually dying. So you would transfer from one to the other and take whatever you have gathered with you.

If there any logical reason for one to hold such a fear?

[Divine Insight]

Is there any logical reason for one to hold such a fear?

No. And this is why I do not actually fear this. You were mistaken to incorrectly assume that I fear this simply because I mentioned this as a philosophical possibility.

My point was that if this was the truth of reality and we were to discover that this is the truth, then it would indeed constitute good reason for everyone to be petrified in fear.

But if a good compassionate God exists then good and compassion people should have no need to fear that reality. Only people who are not good and compassionate might have something to worry about in that situation.

[William]

Divine Insight: My point was that if this was the truth of reality and we were to discover that this is the truth, then it would indeed constitute good reason for everyone to be petrified in fear.

William: What good would being petrified with fear help, if it were true?
That was my point.
And if it were true, why would only those who are not good and compassionate have something to worry about in that situation?