Science Can't Give Us Knowledge

[Dimmesdale]

I am doubtful now that science can even provide us with knowledge of its claims. At least, if we take it alone at face value.

Science gives us a model. The atom, I've heard, cannot be literally described as having smaller constituent parts in the way we represent it. But the model has practical application, so we stick to it.

And so we stick to our other scientific theories in the same way. We don't know with any absolute certainty that they are true, but they have explanatory power insofar as they make sense of the data we perceive.

Take the idea of the firmament in ancient times. People thought a crystal dome separated the water that existed in outer space. This was their explanatory mechanism for how rain was produced. And that the sky was blue, there being water "up there." Now we don't believe in a firmament because we have other ways of explaining the same phenomenon. Nonetheless, the same principle seems to hold as in science: we have an explanatory mechanism that can be wrong, but persuasive.

So there's no reason to think that science can give us "facts" - it can only render interesting explanations that make sense of the data we "see."

[Divine Insight]

Humans are a unique animal. Absolutely unique I would say. My opinion is actually not my own. I would actually say it is of Super-human Origin. But, again, I'm not sure how to get into that.

I have to think about this and await your response. I will divulge my view if you are really curious.

I don't see any rational reasons to accept this idea. However, let's supposed I did accept that humans are so unique that they must have been created by an intelligent God.

Then what?

What should I do at that point?

If I were going to turn to religion for an answer I'd have to turn to Buddhism as the best answer mankind has yet come up with. Not to suggest that it's flawless, but of all the religions mankind has ever invented it's definitely the most rational.

I certainly wouldn't be driven to believe in Christianity. Let's not forget that you hypothesis is that humans are so great they must have a super-human origin. If that's the case why would I believe in Christianity?

Christianity holds that not only just a few, but ALL, humans are defective and in dire need of salvation. Why in the world would I choose to believe in such an inept creator that he couldn't even create so much as a single good human?

And what does he do about this problem that he obviously created? He comes to earth disguised as his only begotten Son and arranges to have humans brutally crucify him on a pole so that he can offer undeserved amnesty to anyone who believes this?

Surely an omnipotent, all-wise, perfect God could come up with a better plan than this?

So even if I thought there was a reason to believe that humans were designed by a supernatural designer, that certainly wouldn't help Christian theology.

Like I say, Buddhism would win the day when it comes to religions anyway. And there's no reason to even think that Buddhism should be correct. Perhaps the supernatural entities that created us aren't even represented by any man-made religions?

But even all this requires that I'm first convinced that humans are all that great. Look around at humanity. They don't appear to be acting much different from a troop of apes if you ask me. Sure, they have reached technological know-how, but overall they are still acting like a bunch of idiots for the most part. Hardly impressive.

In fact, my cousins just went to the local grocery store near my home. They wore masks when they went and had disinfectant in the car that they used immediately upon leaving the story. So they are pretty smart apes.

But what about everyone else? Well, my cousins reported that no one else in the store was wearing any protection at all, including the workers. and the store was packed! Are these people idiots? Don't they know we're in the middle of a pandemic?

I'm serious too! Apparently we aren't very far removed from apes. At least in terms of any true intelligence.

It won't be long now before our whole community has COVID-19 and everyone will be wondering how they got it.

Well DUH?

Haven't they been watching the news?

I just don't see where humans are all that much smarter than apes to be honest with you.

[Dimmesdale]

I don't see any rational reasons to accept this idea. However, let's supposed I did accept that humans are so unique that they must have been created by an intelligent God.

Then what?

What should I do at that point?

Inquire. Inquire as to the nature of this newfound reality. If we were created, then perhaps there is a purpose for such creation, no? There is usually a rational reason for creating: if I want to know the time, I make a watch, etc. Actually, I don't believe we were created; I believe we are eternal beings who are temporarily embodied. But, nonetheless, the analogy holds that if there is a personal God, and we find our ontological source in him, are related to him in an intimate way, then our existence has a purpose and is not aimless. Especially if that God is of the nature of Love. The purpose for us may be to love God.

If I were going to turn to religion for an answer I'd have to turn to Buddhism as the best answer mankind has yet come up with. Not to suggest that it's flawless, but of all the religions mankind has ever invented it's definitely the most rational.

Why? Because it's the most minimalistic and makes the fewest modernly repugnant metaphysical claims? Why not question and re-evaluate your own assumptions about reality and look at the whole gamut of religious views, not just Buddhism.

I certainly wouldn't be driven to believe in Christianity. Let's not forget that you hypothesis is that humans are so great they must have a super-human origin. If that's the case why would I believe in Christianity?

Christianity holds that not only just a few, but ALL, humans are defective and in dire need of salvation. Why in the world would I choose to believe in such an inept creator that he couldn't even create so much as a single good human?

And what does he do about this problem that he obviously created? He comes to earth disguised as his only begotten Son and arranges to have humans brutally crucify him on a pole so that he can offer undeserved amnesty to anyone who believes this?

Surely an omnipotent, all-wise, perfect God could come up with a better plan than this?

So even if I thought there was a reason to believe that humans were designed by a supernatural designer, that certainly wouldn't help Christian theology.

I am not a Christian, but there are other theisms out there. I won't say, at least yet, what exactly I believe because that's tricky for me, but I don't see why we should limit ourselves to Christianity alone. There is a great deal of wisdom literature out there. Do your own research.

Like I say, Buddhism would win the day when it comes to religions anyway. And there's no reason to even think that Buddhism should be correct. Perhaps the supernatural entities that created us aren't even represented by any man-made religions?

Well, why think such supernatural entities, if they really are supernatural, wouldn't care? Deism has never made much sense to me. An impersonal pantheistic God maybe, but not a callous personal Creator. The higher up you go ontologically, it seems that the more powerful love as an active principle becomes. When you see a great celebrity, for example, often the first thing you notice is magnanimity, or great-heartedness. At least, personalities with heart, and not self-centered jerks. That's the litmus test of a great personality: his/her love for others, his/her big-heartedness. Not how much money one has in the bank, etc. If these supernatural entities were at a truly higher level, they would be more intelligent but also more empathic, more kind, more human.....

But even all this requires that I'm first convinced that humans are all that great. Look around at humanity. They don't appear to be acting much different from a troop of apes if you ask me. Sure, they have reached technological know-how, but overall they are still acting like a bunch of idiots for the most part. Hardly impressive.

What about the saints? Humans have moral faults, and some humans are more degraded than others. But if you look at legitimate religion, you will still find human beings who transcended their selfishness and went on to greater things. Can a chimpanzee commit his or here entire life for the poor and give up everything for the sake of God and humanity? Has any gorilla ever accepted martyrdom for a higher cause? Have you witnessed any of the great apes do anything that even approaches the moral capability of the human being? I say that we should be able to see a gradation here. Rather, we see a steep drop-off.

I just don't see where humans are all that much smarter than apes to be honest with you.

Well, our intellect may be subject to a great amount of illusion. But the heart takes precedence in my view.

[Purple Knight]

It is wasteful practically speaking. We HAVE to assume laws to be absolute to function pragmatically. If we designed a spaceship willy-nilly then we jeopardize lives. However, if we look to God's Great Wisdom and Providence, that He Shapes Nature according to His Sweet Will and that, in truth, ANYTHING is POSSIBLE, then we have every right to broaden our horizons..... That's my opinion.

That's why you design a starship, then test it. You test and retest and you retest some more. And at last you send mice or monkeys on it first to make sure warp drive doesn't explode your brain and/or shrivel your testicles into little purple raisins.

And sure, look to nature for inspiration. If you see a giant space duck floating by, look at it and figure out what adaptations it has to make it so great at being in space.

...But all of this is part of science.

If science really couldn't give us knowledge, we couldn't so much as figure out that sometimes, we should copy nature.

I think that our brains reflect Divinity, and the purpose is to experience/realize/serve God. We have knowledge insofar as we are graced by God's mercy and lovingkindness. This is the real purpose of knowledge, all other purposes being subsidiary to it. Our intelligence isn't simply something developmental, but inherent. We are born intelligent, but that intelligence is covered by illusion. I don't want to preach at you, but this is very simply what I believe....

Do cats have divinity? They're pretty intelligent. I taught mine fetch, shake, and turn around. Gorillas have an IQ of about 85 and can actually speak to us with sign language.

My question about oysters remains. If you puked your guts out every time you ate them, did this seven or eight times, and you'd never been able to eat them without puking your guts out, what would you conclude? And what would you do?

[Divine Insight]

I am not a Christian, but there are other theisms out there. I won't say, at least yet, what exactly I believe because that's tricky for me, but I don't see why we should limit ourselves to Christianity alone. There is a great deal of wisdom literature out there. Do your own research.

I'm familiar with most world religions from throughout all of history. Including very primitive beliefs, such as shamanism, etc,

While they are all interesting I have yet to find any that are actually compelling in what they claim. I've even done meditation and shamanic journeying. While I find these practices interesting and sometimes quite pleasurable, I have never found any reason to think that they are anything more than the product of my own imagination.

Actually, if I was going to chose a religion based on finding it attractive I would have to chose my own form of eclectic Wicca. And while I have indeed created this paradigm via what I have found attractive felt has "called to me". That's not a cheat in this religion as this is precisely what the religion teaches us to do.

You're suppose to follow what "Calls to you". Kind of like how Christianity believes that their Holy Spirit will call to them.

In fact, I still practice my form of electric Wicca today. Not because I believe it's real, but it actually turned out to be quite fun and emotionally rewarding. So why not do it? And if someone wants to tell me that it's just an imaginary game I'm playing with myself, I won't even argue with them. To the contrary, I'd probably say, 'Yep, that's exactly what it is."

Is there a real God? Is there an afterlife?

I don't know the answers to these questions and I'm not going to pretend to know. But I can say the following with confidence.

If there is a God she likes me very much and isn't upset with me.

If there's an afterlife I have no reason to believe that it would be anything less than wonderful (assuming there is a decent loving God behind it)

Religions like Christianity necessarily have a God who would have no choice but to be exceedingly mean and cruel to me. Why? Because I don't buy into the religion at all. I see the God Yahweh in the Old Testament to be nothing short of an idea and a self-centered jerk that is apparently more hung up on himself than caring about any individual humans. I see nothing attractive about the God described in the Old Testament.

Christianity ironically offer to be my best defense witnesses should I ever come before their God in trial. They will be the first to claim that I have it all WRONG!

I couldn't ask for better witnesses on my behalf. What decent loving God would condemn me for having rejected a picture of him that is all WRONG? If anything he should rejoice that I did exactly that.

What about Jesus? Well, duh? I've already concluded that the God described in the Old Testament can't be real. So why in the world would I think that Jesus is the Son of a fake God?

Also, I have nothing against the moral values that Jesus taught. To the contrary as far as I'm concerned Jesus was the first character in the Bible to express MY point of view on things.

How could I possibly follow Jesus when he already agrees with me. All I could do is stand side-by-side with Jesus and give him a high-five for agreeing with my moral values. I would certainly have no reason to kneel down and kiss his feet. In fact, I can't imagine why anyone other than an arrogant pig would expect anyone to do such a thing in the first place. I would never expect anyone to kneel down and kiss my feet. Why in the world would I want anyone to do that?

The whole religion is just sick.

So yeah, if I'm going to embrace a religion give me Wicca.

The friendly Moon Goddess and Sun God. They aren't out to condemn me, and they aren't demanding that I bow down and worship them lest they'll unleash the wrath of a psychopath on me.

They don't need to be worshiped. They aren't hard-up for attention.

I can never understand theologies that have God's who demand to be worshiped and praised. It's really no wonder that so many evangelists see Trump as their new God. He's really basically the same as the Biblical God. Worship him or he'll Tweet you to death.

He's almost identical to the Biblical God actually.

[Dimmesdale]

Do cats have divinity? They're pretty intelligent. I taught mine fetch, shake, and turn around. Gorillas have an IQ of about 85 and can actually speak to us with sign language.

I think that all living things have a spark of divinity, but only in human beings is the mind developed in such a way that we can relate to God in an authentic way.

My question about oysters remains. If you puked your guts out every time you ate them, did this seven or eight times, and you'd never been able to eat them without puking your guts out, what would you conclude? And what would you do?

I would conclude that it is a general rule that when I eat oysters I get sick and I should desist. Again, it's a practical matter. We have to act on practical.. knowledge. So I suppose science can give us some knowledge, you win.


In the same way, if you vibrate a particular mantra under the right conditions, the deity of your choice may appear to you. This is also just as scientific, or can't be distinguished in any meaningful way from modern science, I think.

[Purple Knight]

I would conclude that it is a general rule that when I eat oysters I get sick and I should desist. Again, it's a practical matter. We have to act on practical.. knowledge. So I suppose science can give us some knowledge, you win.

Well, you're right too; science can't give us absolute knowledge. But we've built a lot on the non-absolute. Our well-verified theories of how things work have given us the light bulb, televisions, and the internet, in addition to stopping people from repeatedly puking up oysters.

It's a terrifying thing that all knowledge - all of what we call knowledge - is based on inductive logic and not at all absolute. Could I be wrong that I'm sweeping the floor? Maybe I'm killing people and I just think I'm sweeping the floor. On the outside, you never really know.

In the same way, if you vibrate a particular mantra under the right conditions, the deity of your choice may appear to you. This is also just as scientific, or can't be distinguished in any meaningful way from modern science, I think.

Well, yes, if it's as verifiable.

[Dimmesdale]

It's a terrifying thing that all knowledge - all of what we call knowledge - is based on inductive logic and not at all absolute. Could I be wrong that I'm sweeping the floor? Maybe I'm killing people and I just think I'm sweeping the floor. On the outside, you never really know.

I too find this thought unsettling. I do believe in absolute truth... but we have to take into account the source.... Do we really think at this period in the 21st century we have a greater grasp on reality than all other ages? Or is perhaps our own perspective skewed by enthroning the Scientific Method as Supreme, rather than as only as a Tool.... The wisdom literature of the ancients is full of miracles, divinities, and powers that we see as impossible... but maybe humanity was more spiritually developed in former Ages and we have actually devolved while in proportion our material capability has increased..... Perhaps we have meticulously crafted the analytical method, at the expense of spiritual insight...

In the same way, if you vibrate a particular mantra under the right conditions, the deity of your choice may appear to you. This is also just as scientific, or can't be distinguished in any meaningful way from modern science, I think.

Well, yes, if it's as verifiable.[/quote]

Well, you have to take into account peoples' knowledge. I am the very opposite of an analytical scientist. I could hardly finish middle school algebra. When it comes to proving complex scientific theories, I would not know where to begin. For that reason, I have to accept a knowledge authority wiser than myself who has witnessed the evidence firsthand. I don't know how chemotherapy works, but I trust my doctors for instance (well, actually I've never had cancer but you get the idea..).

Going along with the idea that the miraculous was more common long ago, perhaps we should not so easily discount the authorities of ancient sages who testify that some things really did work in the long, long past of the earth......

Just my two cents...

[JehovahsWitness]

I am doubtful now that science can even provide us with knowledge of its claims. At least, if we take it alone at face value.

Science can shed light on the physical, but can it tell us muvh about the spiritual?

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Purple Knight]

Well, you have to take into account peoples' knowledge. I am the very opposite of an analytical scientist. I could hardly finish middle school algebra. When it comes to proving complex scientific theories, I would not know where to begin.

For the very complex, sure. But every human knows how science is done. This goes back to the oysters. If you stop eating them after having them seven or eight times and puking your guts out every single time, that's scientific, and you inherently know what science is.

I also assume you know how the theory can easily be tested: By eating oysters alone. Perhaps you've always had them from the buffet and their food is none-too-fresh to begin with, spelling disaster for oysters in particular. Perhaps all the buffet's food is rotten. Perhaps you're reacting to something else. All of these things can be tested and I would bet good money you would know inherently how to test them. You are doing science. You are inherently capable of that. If you weren't, you'd be dead.