Grace - From the Universe, or a Person?

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Dimmesdale
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Grace - From the Universe, or a Person?

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Post by Dimmesdale »

I have heard it said from some New Agers and impersonal mystics that, yes, there is such a thing as grace -- but it doesn't come from a Person who is God. It is simply a conduit of energy that finds its source in the "Source", the great Being that is the substratum of all that exists. It is impersonal, not personal.

I think it should be seen that this is not the word 'grace' in the sense that personalistic theists like Christians use.

Grace by definition implies a person. If one gains unmerited favor, the classic definition of grace, that implies a person who has and is giving favor. The universe can't have favor in this sense. How can a universe of energy "favor"? To favor implies a will, a will 'willing' to grant that favor to another. If the universe does not have a will, in other words, it cannot favor. Conversely, anything that has a will, is by definition a person. For a will implies a mind and personality and all that comes with it (like dignity, and consciousness and self-respect, etc). To say, in another context, that the universe "favors" would only mean that the universe has, as a certain condition, a state of affairs which is "inclined" to benefit the recipient of a given good. This is kind of like winning the lottery. Let's say you have a ticket and you're watching the balls bounce around in the lottery machine. By some dint of circumstance the balls align a certain away (according to the universe's laws of matter) and by that fact you are elected to win the millions. Thus, in a sense, you can be said to be "favored" by the world working a certain way.

But this is certainly not what favor means in the context of grace. It is completely meaningless to compare the two. On the one hand, one is favored by completely blind forces of nature (assuming there is no superintending deity) and on the other one is favored (in the true sense) by an actual decision-making being - a Person. Only in the latter case is gratitude, the end result of grace, to be expected. Only in that context does it make sense. Why should anyone be grateful to blind laws?

It is really nothing more than a sleight of hand that New Agers can get away with saying that the grace in both regards is one and the same. It is not. They are apples and oranges and anyone with a small amount of common sense can see it as so.

That said, I think there are still many sincere New Agers and mystics who, in spite of themselves, believe in true grace, and a true Granter of that Grace. But again, these are people who believe or know this, in spite of their philosophies, not because of them.

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Re: Grace - From the Universe, or a Person?

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Post by Purple Knight »

I... suppose... that they believe it's about becoming that which the blind laws of the universe do favour...?

But no, it doesn't make much sense to me either.

These are the very sorts of Christians I've been exposed to my whole life. The infinite forgiveness ones. The all-paths-lead-to-Jesus ones. I can recognise who you're talking about.

Mainly I'm glad there aren't any on this forum because they're a pain to deal with. But on a very basal emotional level I'm frustrated because it essentially looks like I believe in ghosts or that I am trying to strawman Christianity for just repeating what these people say.

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Re: Grace - From the Universe, or a Person?

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Post by Dimmesdale »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:45 pm I... suppose... that they believe it's about becoming that which the blind laws of the universe do favour...?

But no, it doesn't make much sense to me either.

These are the very sorts of Christians I've been exposed to my whole life. The infinite forgiveness ones. The all-paths-lead-to-Jesus ones. I can recognise who you're talking about.

Mainly I'm glad there aren't any on this forum because they're a pain to deal with. But on a very basal emotional level I'm frustrated because it essentially looks like I believe in ghosts or that I am trying to strawman Christianity for just repeating what these people say.
There is a sense in which I almost prefer the fundamentalist fire and brimstone preachers, compared to the bland New Age mystics and Universalist Christians. The former are at least more sincere and candid about their beliefs, it seems to me. They are almost endearing, some of them, the brighter lights, anyway -- the way they take their cherished beliefs seriously. The latter on the other hand are usually very vague and humanist in a very milquetoast sort of way which is precisely repugnant because they seem to lack a spine and any true enthusiasm regarding what they believe. And even the enthusiastic ones come across as phony. Then again, I don't know all of them, so perhaps I am stereotyping. This is just my general impression.

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Re: Grace - From the Universe, or a Person?

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Dimmesdale wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:45 pmThen again, I don't know all of them, so perhaps I am stereotyping. This is just my general impression.
The ones I have known have been very hard-set in their beliefs. Infinitely accepting, yet infinitely not accepting. The minister who said I wasn't allowed to report it to the police when my drunk mother stole my show-quality, prizewinning, intact Japanese Bobtail cat (worth about $2800) because it wasn't Christian forgiveness also said he would call the cops on me if I punched him in the face.

Because if I call the cops, I'm vengeful. I want someone thrown in jail. That's vengeance.

But if I punch him in the face to prove a point and he calls the cops, that's still me being vengeful.

Yes, I threatened to hit a minster. I'm sorry I did such a thing, but I really loved that cat.

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Re: Grace - From the Universe, or a Person?

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Purple Knight wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:27 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:45 pmThen again, I don't know all of them, so perhaps I am stereotyping. This is just my general impression.
The ones I have known have been very hard-set in their beliefs. Infinitely accepting, yet infinitely not accepting. The minister who said I wasn't allowed to report it to the police when my drunk mother stole my show-quality, prizewinning, intact Japanese Bobtail cat (worth about $2800) because it wasn't Christian forgiveness also said he would call the cops on me if I punched him in the face.

Because if I call the cops, I'm vengeful. I want someone thrown in jail. That's vengeance.

But if I punch him in the face to prove a point and he calls the cops, that's still me being vengeful.

Yes, I threatened to hit a minster. I'm sorry I did such a thing, but I really loved that cat.
It seems to me a lot of so-called spiritual people try to reject their lower nature, i.e the body and all such material things, which include passions such as anger, but they do so artificially and in effect become even more embroiled in those lower modes due to the repressive nature of their discipline, which has no real outlet. That is a case in point. It's the paradoxical nature of rejecting the body prematurely. The body bites back.

I believe spirituality has a true template, that we can conform ourselves to. But finding that out takes work. It isn't that some random guru, who isn't a guru at all but is a hypocrite on a power trip, can give you a tract with all the answers on it, and bang, you got it. It is a shame human beings have lost those true sources of spiritual life which exist embedded in more authentic religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism and have substituted artificial and shallow methods to get spiritually high, which is really only another form of intoxicated hallucination, without a trace of genuine spirituality. That is to put it lightly. My advice: look to older sources of tradition, not cults that have popped up within the last 100 years or so. Traditions with actual pedigree and time-tested when it comes to granting the highest salvific experiences.

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