The Lord said to My Lord...

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ICHTHUS
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The Lord said to My Lord...

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Post by ICHTHUS »

The LORD said to My Lord…

“Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to him, “The son of David.”( Matthew 22:41-42). How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.” David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?” And the great throng heard him gladly.” (Mark 12:35-37). And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions” (Matthew 22:46)”

This is THE most Important question that any human being can ever be asked, “What do you think about the Christ?. The answer to this question will determine the eternal destiny of every human, depending on what their answer is. Who is Jesus Christ? To these Jews, Jesus says, “what do you think about The Messiah”, “Ho Christos” being the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew, “Mashiach”.

Jesus is not here denying that He is “The Son of David”, which means that His human line came from David. This is confirmed in the very first verse in the Gospel of Matthew. Those who heard Jesus preach, often called out to Him, “"Have mercy on us, Son of David!" (Matthew 9:27; 15:22; 20:30, etc). To which Jesus never objected. The Term, “The Son of David”, was known as a Title of the Messiah at this time, as we read in Matthew 12:23, “All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?”. And, “Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?” (John 7:42). These first century Jews knew what it meant by “The Son of David”.

In these passages in the Gospels, Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament Psalm 110.

“The LORD said to My Lord…”

It is clear from these passages, that Jesus Christ is here claiming for Himself, Absolute Deity, as Yahweh, and fully equal with God the Father.

Psalm 110 is understood as Messianic, by the older Jewish commentators. Which is what the Jews in Jesus’ time would have known. As we see for verse 1:
“In the Midrash Tehillim on this passage, it is said, " God spake thus to the Messiah”” (J Stewart Perowne, The Book of Pslams, p.288)

John Gill says in his commentary, that the Targum of Jonathan reads in verse 1, “the Lord said to his Word”

Here we have, "The LORD (Yahweh) said”, “to My Lord (Adoni)” a direct address by Yahweh to Adon (the root word), which is masculine and singular. It is argued by some, that this Hebrew noun is used in the sense of “master, lord, sir, governor”, as a title of “respect” for a more “noble” person, and always only for humans, and never of God. As we shall see, that these arguments are misleading, and do not reflect the use of “Adon”, in the Bible.

The Masoretes punctuate verse one: “Adoni”, which is the singular noun and singular suffix, literally, “my lord”, or “my Lord”. This can be used for God as well as humans. The form “Adonai”, plural noun and singular suffix, literally, “my Lords”, or “Lord”, which is only used for God.

A website that is used to promote “Unitarianism” as the Bible’s Teaching of the God of the Bible, and is anti Trinitarian, says this on the use of “Adon” in this verse:
“The Hebrew word translated “my lord” is adoni (pronounced “Adon nee”) in the standard Hebrew texts. This word is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God...The difference between adon (the root word), adoni (“lord,” always used of men or angels) and adonai (which is used of God and sometimes written adonay) is critical to the understanding of Psalm 110:1.” (https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/psalm-110-1)

Likewise, we have the argument used by a Jewish Rabbi:

“I should note that the second “lord” in Hebrew is not “ado-nai” – the term the Torah reserves for God, but “adoni”. The latter is a simple Hebrew word which means “my lord” but is not sacred. Throughout the Torah that word is used in reference to honored human beings but never to God, e.g. Genesis 18:3, 23:6, 24:18, 31:35, 33:8, 34:14, 44:18, etc. Thus, it was incorrectly capitalized in your translation. In fact, Hebrew has no capital letters so capitalizations which are found in English translations are merely based on translators’ assumptions, and as you can see, are not always reliable.” (Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld; https://www.aish.com/atr/Psalm-110-Two-Lords.html)

Are these comments factually right? The evidence from the Old Testament itself, will show that these two websites are here are completely wrong. There are many instances in the Old Testament, where “Adon” is used for Almighty God. In Exodus 23:17, “the Lord (Adon) GOD”; Exodus 34:23, “before the Lord (Adon) GOD, the God of Israel”; Joshua 3:11, 13, “the Lord (Adon) of all the earth”; Psalm 97:5, “the Lord (Adon) of the whole earth”; Psalm 114:7 reads, “Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord (Adon)”; Isaiah 1:24, 3:1, 10:16, 10:33, 19:4, “the Lord (Adon), the LORD of hosts”; Isaiah 51:22, “Thus saith thy Lord (Adon) the LORD, and thy God”; Micah 4:13, “the Lord (Adon) of the whole earth”; Zechariah 4:14, “the Lord (Adon) of the whole earth”; 6:5, “the Lord (Adon) of all the earth”. In Deuteronomy 10:17, we read: “O give thanks to the Lord of lords”; and Psalm 136:3, it says: “For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords”. In the Hebrew, where it says “Lord”, and “lord”, in its 4 uses, the word used is, “Adon”. They are in the masculine plural, literally, “master of masters”. So, to say that “Adon”, “is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God”, as these websites do, is downright misleading.

It matters not whether it reads as it does in Psalm 110:1, as “my Lord”, or, as in Isaiah 51:22, “thy Lord”, or, simply “the Lord”. Each case the root word is the same in the Hebrew, “Adon”. And we have clear uses of this word for the Lord God in the Old Testament, and not as some suggest, only used for humans.

Verses that use “Adon” in these contexts, “the Lord of the whole earth”, and “the Lord of all the earth”, and “For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords”, show that God is seen as The Absolute Ruler and Power in the universe. Hardly of someone who is simply a “lord or master, or noble”! Interesting, that in the Greek Old Testament by Symmachus, at the end of the 2nd century, it says in Psalm 110:1, “The Lord said “τῷ δεσπότη μου”, which is not simply “Lord”, but of “Absolute Ruler”. The Greek “δεσπότης”, is from where we get our “Despot” from, which means, “a ruler with absolute power and authority” (Webster’s Dictionary). Colin Brown’s, New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, defines as, “despotes expresses the arbitrary, unlimited exercise of power without any real conditions”.

Verse 5 makes it very clear Who is “Adoni” is in verse 1. Here it reads:

“The Lord at your Right Hand”

Which is a further reference to “Adoni”, Who is at the Right Hand of “Yahweh”. In verse 5 the Hebrew word used in the greater majority of manuscripts, is “Adonay”, and not “Adoni”. “Adonay” is always used in the Old Testament for Almighty God, and never for any humans or heavenly beings. There are about 20 Hebrew Masoretic Text, that reads in verse 5, “Yahweh”. Either Name is that used for the Eternal, Unchanging, Self-Existing, God of the Holy Bible. And here it is clearly used for the Lord Jesus Christ!

Some, who cannot accept the fact, that Jesus Christ is here identified as Almighty God, have suggested that verse 5 does not mean what it actually says. As Dr Cheyen says in his Commentary:

“The description in vv. 2, 3 is resumed. The Lord is Jehovah (surely not the king), who is invisibly standing at His viceroy's right hand” (p.303)

Others try to read, “the Lord is at your Right Hand”, which is not in the Hebrew.

The “Yahweh” of verse 1, now changes places with “Adon”, and is on His Right Hand! This is no more than conjecture and the rejection of what the Bible plainly Teaches. There is NO Scripture passage that says that God the Father is at the Right Hand of Jesus Christ. What it does say in verse 5, is that the “Adon”, which some of the Masoretic manuscripts, by the Jews, read “Yahweh”, is COEQUAL with “Yahweh”. Verse one can be translated as “Yahweh says to my Yahweh”.

The passages in the Gospels, when read with Psalm 110, is one of the clearest and strongest, testimonies by The Lord Jesus Christ, on His Absolute Deity. These passages also show that the God of the Holy Bible is not “Unitarian”, as there are here TWO distinct “Persons” Who are EQUALLY Almighty God.

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Re: The Lord said to My Lord...

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Matt 22:41-43 . . While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them: What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?

. . .The son of David; they replied.

He said to them: How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him Lord?

The rank of firstborn isn't always per primogeniture. It can be transferred from an elder sibling to a younger: for example Esau to Jacob, Manasseh to Ephraim, and Reuben to Joseph.

God established David as His firstborn in regard to monarchs.


Ps 89:20-27 . . I have found My servant David; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . . . I will make him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

So then, in order for one of David's sons to outrank their paterfamilias, it would be necessary for God to revoke David's rank and transfer it to the son.

This was previously unheard of in the Jews' history. Their sacred writings record the rank of siblings being shifted around from one to another, but never a father's to a son. In point of fact, the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God requires children to revere their fathers, not the other way around (Ex 20:12). It's no surprise then that the Pharisees were baffled.


Matt 22:46 . . And no one was able to answer him a word.

NOTE: The Pharisees are a case in point that anybody can read the Bible, and anybody can parrot the Bible, but not just anybody can explain it.
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Re: The Lord said to My Lord...

Post #22

Post by 2timothy316 »

WebersHome wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:49 pm
NOTE: The Pharisees are a case in point that anybody can read the Bible, and anybody can parrot the Bible, but not just anybody can explain it.
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I think anyone can explain the Bible, yet without certain steps, it's true a person will not be able to do it.

First, pray to the God of the Bible. (Ps 83:18)
Second, have a receptive attitude. (Mat 13:13-15)
Third, let God's Word be interpreted by God's Word. The Bible is harmonious and if there is a contradiction then the doctrine is wrong, not the Bible. (Gen 40:8)
Forth, avoid all forms of eisegesis. Do not let a doctrine force itself on the Bible. Use Exegesis, let the Bible's message give the doctrine. (Isa. 30:20, 21)

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Re: The Lord said to My Lord...

Post #23

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2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:07 amI think anyone can explain the Bible
I don't doubt that's believed in your own religion; but in Christianity, only specific individuals are endowed with the ability to explain the Bible. (Rom 12:5-8, 1Cor 12:27-30, and Eph 4:11)
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Re: The Lord said to My Lord...

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WebersHome wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:17 pm .
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:07 amI think anyone can explain the Bible
I don't doubt that's believed in your own religion; but in Christianity, only specific individuals are endowed with the ability to explain the Bible. (Rom 12:5-8, 1Cor 12:27-30, and Eph 4:11)
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The scriptures you left are not about understanding the Bible. They are about special gifts of the Holy Spirit, like healing powers, speaking in other languages etc.
It is not my religion that taught me that anyone can understand the Bible, it was the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16, says that all one must be is a 'man of God' to gain the full benefits of the Bible. No special powers required. Who can become a 'man of God'? ANYONE.

“Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you. For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened.” (Matt. 7:7, 8)

"So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him. But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about." (James 1:5, 6)

All of this starts with one important thing, humility in the fear of God. A lack of respect for God is the only thing that can keep a person from wisdom and insight. Psalm 111:10. Does everyone have this? No. Those that don't will struggle with the Bible. If a person can't understand the Bible it is themselves that is keeping themselves from it, seeing that God "gives generously to all and without reproaching".

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Re: The Lord said to My Lord...

Post #25

Post by 1213 »

ICHTHUS wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:56 pm [Replying to 1213 in post #6]

You take one verse from the Bible, and suppose that you can "prove" what you think, to be true!
I don't think I changed anything Bible says. If you think Jesus is the God, why ignore when he says the Father is greater than him?
ICHTHUS wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:56 pmIn Isaiah 9:6, we have The Prophecy of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, where He is clearly called, Mighty God, the exact same used for Yahweh, the Father in 10:21.
...
In Hebrews 1:6, God the Father says that Jesus Christ must be WORSHIPPED.
...
Sorry, I think those scriptures don’t really support your idea. Others are in my opinion clear without explanation, but about this:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

I think it would be good to notice, God gave His name to Jesus and then Jesus acted in the name of God. So, the name that is God’s name, is obviously all that what Isaiah 9:6 says, but it is not said about Jesus, but about the name.

Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11

And about the Hebrews 1:6, also other people have been “worshiped”. And many have been also called a god also, for example Moses.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Behold, I have made you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Lev. 7.1

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Re: The Lord said to My Lord...

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2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:50 pmThe scriptures you left are not about understanding the Bible.

Neither post No.21 nor post No.23 speak of understanding the Bible, rather, they speak of explaining it.

Understanding the Bible, and explaining the Bible, are two distinctly different spiritual gifts. The Pharisees, apparently, had neither.
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Re: The Lord said to My Lord...

Post #27

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[replying to ICHTHUS in post 9]

Is. 9:6

Many trinitarians will tell you that, since the name “Jesus” (probably “Yehoshua” in Hebrew) means “Jehovah is Salvation” (or “Jehovah Saves”), then Jesus is Jehovah.

If that were true, then all the other people in the Bible whose names had that same meaning (which includes all those named “Jesus,” “Joshua,” “Jeshuah,” and “Isaiah”) are also Jehovah!

It is clear that many (if not most) of the personal names of God’s people had meanings which were meant to honor God, not to glorify the person who bore that personal name.

Many (but not all) trinitarians will tell you that Is. 9:6 proves that Jesus is God.

Is. 9:6 says –
“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” - NASB.

But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God”) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

First, there is the possibility that the words (or titles) found in the literal meaning of the name apply directly to the Messiah all right but in a subordinate sense. In other words, Christ is “a mighty god” in the same sense that God’s angels were called “gods” and the judges of Israel were called “gods” by God himself (also by Jesus - John 10:34, 35), and Moses was called “a god” by Jehovah himself. This is the interpretation of Is. 9:6 by the WT Society at this time.

The word “god” as understood by those who when using the secondary sense simply meant a “mighty one” - see Young’s Concordance. In fact the word “Mighty” as found at Is. 9:6 (Gibbor in the original Hebrew) is also applied to the angels at Ps. 103:20 (see a modern concordance such as the New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible).

Instead of “Mighty God,” Dr. James Moffatt translated this part of Is. 9:6 as “a divine hero;” Byington has “Divine Champion;” The New English Bible has “In Battle Godlike;” The Catholic New American Bible (1970 and 1991 revision) renders it “God-Hero;” and the REB says “Mighty Hero.” Even that respected Biblical Hebrew language expert, Gesenius, translated it “mighty hero” - p. 45, Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon.

Also, The NIV Study Bible, in a f.n. for Ps 45:6, tells us:
“In this psalm, which praises the king and especially extols his ‘splendor and majesty’ (v. 3), it is not unthinkable that he was called ‘god’ as a title of honor [cf. Isa 9:6].” (Bracketed information included in original footnote.)

In addition, Rotherham has rendered “Eternal Father” as “father of progress,” and the New English Bible translates it: “father of a wide realm.”

The above-mentioned Bible translations by trinitarian scholars which apply the words in the name at Is. 9:6 in a subordinate sense directly to Jesus clearly show that they do not believe this scripture implies an equality with Jehovah the Father.

And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name at Is. 9:6 is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we have already seen above) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best-known Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his King” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original.

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - - “They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:
“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:
“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:
“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

Of course it could also be honestly translated:
“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:
[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;
[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [1] “quick to the plunder; [2] swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [1]“For unto us a child is born; [2] unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a few trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God. But, of course, most trinitarian translators insist on only the KJV version of Is. 9:6 and ignore anything else.

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