Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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Luke 16:26-27 . . Between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.

Although folks aren't permitted to cross back and forth over the chasm, they can at least communicate visually and audibly. I hope that's still the case because I would hate to think that I won't be able to catch up with my lost loved ones and my BFFs before they're permanently vanquished to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15.
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Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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I would suggest the purpose of the whole parable/story (or whatever form-critics might call it) is the last verse.

31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

Probably not ideal to try and extract other teachings from the passage. Thoughts?

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Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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WebersHome wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:59 pm .
Luke 16:26-27 . . Between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.

Although folks aren't permitted to cross back and forth over the chasm, they can at least communicate visually and audibly. I hope that's still the case because I would hate to think that I won't be able to catch up with my lost loved ones and my BFFs before they're permanently vanquished to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15.
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Most people don't burn in hell. Most simply perish. Even those who burn in hell are eventually destroyed. It all depends on what God wants. Some people he enjoys watching burn for quite a while. Others, He destroys as soon as the popcorn is gone. Don't kid yourself about God. It's one thing to say you can't believe. Okay, you die, you reabsorb back into the mind of God (a very pleasurable experience, by the way) and then you are as if you never were. But to mock God and to persecute His elect, well, now, that's different. That's like whipping Jesus on the way to the cross.

I'm not judging you, and I'm not saying you're going to hell. That's not my call, and that's none of my business, and the bottom line is I don't know anyway. I'm just saying I don't have the courage to mock God. God can be quite terrible. Actually, He often is.
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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Just a head's up.

This particular area of Debating Christianity is set up for non-debating. So don't get upset when you see me ignoring your comments because around here I have the right to remain silent.

Thank You
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Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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There's a distinct possibility that the rich man and Abraham are related because he addressed the man as "son" and the man addressed Abraham as "father".

I have two grandsons. I'm not sure how well I will cope should either of them end up in the wrong place.
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Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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In the story told at Luke 16-19-31, the beggar Lazarus died and was carried by angels to the afterlife. Curiously, the rich man's transportation isn't specified.

One of the most disturbing scenes I've yet to observe in a Hollywood movie occurs in "GHOST" starring Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. When someone marked for the wrong side of the afterlife passes away, these eerie phantoms emerge, having the appearance of black oily smoke, uttering awful moans, and drag their panic-stricken captives down into the ground.

I don't know if that's how the rich man in Luke's story was transported, but if so; I can well imagine just how shocking and horrifying it must've been for him at death to suddenly be able to see menacing spirit creatures surrounding him with looks on their faces that could only convey but one unmistakable intent; and I suspect those sinister beings had been hovering around that poor man and stalking him every day and night of his entire life without him knowing it and patiently waiting for the green light to take him down.

Jude 1:9 relates a quarrel between the Devil and an archangel over the disposition of Moses' remains. No one really knows what that was all about but I'm suspecting that the Devil wanted to ensure Moses got a pagan funeral, and likely felt the man deserved it seeing as how Moses was a murderer, and had messed up big time during that incident at the watering rock. So, I wonder if the angels that provided Lazarus transportation were not also assigned as security to protect him from being shanghaied by something similar to those mists depicted in "GHOST".
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Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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There's any number of ways the lost could be making their journeys to the netherworld. For example instead of being dragged underground by ghastly beings such as those described in post No.6 they may just fall down into the ground like water through a sieve.

That's not a ridiculous idea seeing as deceased folk leave this world as disembodied spirits. According to John 4:24 spirit is immaterial, i.e. it has no mass to speak of. Spirit's movement isn't impeded by solid materials like metal and dirt, or wood and stone.

And spirit takes up no space. For example the feral man of Mark 5:1-13 was possessed by a community of spirits who labeled themselves Legion. Webster's defines a legion as the principal unit of the Roman army comprising 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers with cavalry.
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The legion of spirits that left that man went out and took up residence in a herd of about 2,000 swine. That's a pretty good example of how spirits take up no room in the physical world; nor do they crowd each other. All 3,000-6,000 of those spirits managed to fit inside the bodily cargo area of just that one guy. Just imagine the number of spirits that could fit into the passenger area of an SUV.


NOTE: Those spirits slipped right out of that man. There was no need to cut him open so they could evacuate.
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Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said to him: Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish.

NOTE: It's often assumed that the rich man was aflame like a burning log; but Luke 16:24 suggests he was in fire but wasn't necessarily on fire like someone coated with pitch. In other words; his side of the chasm was an oven, i.e. he was overheated and dehydrated, but not kindled like a human torch.

If true that it isn't necessary to be poor to be saved, nor necessary to be rich to be lost, then why compare the two men's station in life?

Well; I can't prove this but strongly suspect that the rich man was a miser and indifferent to deprived folks.

The rich man left Lazarus to foraging garbage when he could've easily funded a decent soup kitchen for folks in his predicament. The rich man could've sponsored a free clinic too instead of leaving Lazarus' medical attention to the dogs thereabouts.

The rich man dressed himself in splendid clothing. Lazarus' clothing was likely badly soiled from his sores and he no doubt would've benefitted greatly from the rich man's discards. And had the rich man taken the initiative to set up drop boxes around the neighborhood, others would likely have been drawn to contribute.

You know, Lazarus wasn't living under a bridge nor sheltering in a cardboard box way across town. He was right there at the rich man's gate where Mr.Pampered had to go past Lazarus every day on his way out so it wouldn't have inconvenienced the rich man the slightest to help alleviate the poor wretch's predicament.
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Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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I believe God has a right to pick his friends just the same as anybody else. Well; judging from several of Jesus' lectures, there are certain personality types with whom God does not care to associate, and one of those types is found in folks who lack the milk of human kindness.

When we get right down to it, the rich man went to the wrong side of the afterlife not especially for anything he did, rather, because he's callous.


Matt 5:7 . . Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Christ wasn't talking about forgiveness in that beatitude. The word for "merciful" is eleemon (el-eh-ay'-mone) which means: compassionate (as an adjective). And the word for "mercy" is eleeo (el-eh-eh'-o) which means: to pity (as a verb).

So then, what Christ says is: if somebody is by nature cruel, hard-hearted, thoughtless, and insensitive; then they will get no sympathy from God.


NOTE: A contemporary example of the rich man's attitude towards lesser fortunate souls than himself is North Korea's Kim Jong-Un: a dictator who squanders billions on military toys while the growth of something like 30 to 40 percent of his citizens' children are stunted by malnutrition.

Adequate health care is available only to a relatively privileged few. There are hospitals in North Korea without electricity and medications. Potable water is another scarcity in North Korea; and fresh meats. Some people there are actually subsisting on frogs, mice, dragon flies. and locusts. The meanwhile, Kim has the best of everything; he's doing just fine.

You know, were North Koreans not forced to respect Kim under the penalty of death, torture, and/or imprisonment, I seriously doubt anybody would. Well; just you wait till Kim arrives in the netherworld. No doubt numbers of people down there can hardly wait for a chance to scratch his eyes out.

I've heard it from ex felons that prison itself is not so bad. It's the society inside that makes prison a living hell. Well; I just wish I could be on-site down below for Kim's home-coming. I expect people down there will be all over him like hungry ants on a grasshopper.
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Re: Relative To Luke 16:19-31

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Luke 16:22-24 . . The rich man also died and was buried. And in hades he lifted up his eyes . . . and saw Abraham far away . . and he cried out and said: Father Abraham!

The New Testament's hades is commonly believed equivalent to the Old Testament's sheol, and both are commonly interpreted "the grave".

Well; my problem with that is people in the grave are supposed to be dead, yet here is a guy in hades who was able to communicate with not only another dead guy, but with a dead guy over in a different grave. How were they doing that? Do the dead have access to some sort of world-wide cemetery network complete with services like Face Time and Zoom?
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