Christ's Resurrection

Pointless Posts, Raves n Rants, Obscure Opinions

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1779
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 24 times

Christ's Resurrection

Post #1

Post by WebersHome »

.
Matt 12:40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Jonah 1:17)

A handy fact to know about Christ's resurrection is that a preponderance of textual evidence indicates that his crucified dead body was restored to life during the third day rather than after the third day was completely over and done with.


Matt 16:21 . . From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matt 20:17-19 . . Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them: We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life.

Matt 17:22-23 . . And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.

Mark 9:31 . . For he taught his disciples, and said unto them: The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Luke 9:22 . . And he said: The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be roused.

Luke 18:31-33 . . Jesus took the twelve aside and told them: We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.

Luke 24:1-8 . . On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

. . .While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them: Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: "The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again." Then they remembered his words.


Luke 24:12-21 . . Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened. Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him.

. . . He asked them: What are you discussing together as you walk along? They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him: Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days? What things? he asked.

. . . About Jesus of Nazareth; they replied. He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.


Luke 24:41-46 . . And while they still could not believe it for joy and were marveling, he said to them : Have you anything here to eat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish; and he took it and ate it before them. Now he said to them : These are my words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and he said to them : Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day

Acts 10:39-41 . . And we are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And they also put him to death by hanging him on a cross. God raised him up on the third day

1Cor 15:4 . . He rose again the third day
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1779
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: Christ's Resurrection

Post #2

Post by WebersHome »

.
The Jews' religious calendar is reckoned from sundown to sundown instead of midnight to midnight. For example: Passover (a.k.a. the feast of Unleavened Bread) begins this year at sundown Friday, the 15th of April.

Seeing as how the women mentioned in Luke 24:1-8 went out to the cemetery on the first day of the week-- which is the day following routine sabbaths --then we may safely deduce that their journey took place during the early morning hours of what would've been a Sunday back then.

That being the case, then the three days and three nights predicted by Matt 12:40 would've run from Thursday sundown to Friday sundown, then from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and then from Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown.

Thus it's easily sleuthed that Christ died by crucifixion on what would've been a Thursday afternoon back then rather than a Friday afternoon.
_

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1779
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: Christ's Resurrection

Post #3

Post by WebersHome »

.
FYI: I highly recommend that we avoid Nisan dating for the simple reason that the Jews' religious calendar was running late that year; which is easily seen by the fact that Jesus dined on his Passover lamb before the Jews ate theirs. He being a prophet in direct contact with God would know the correct moment, whereas the Jews' methods are vulnerable to human error.

Also; that particular week-end had two sabbaths to reckon with: one was the routine sabbath, and the other was the Passover sabbath which is a floating sabbath that coincides with the first night of the feast of Unleavened Bread. The two sabbaths were in such close proximity that particular year that it's common for the Passover sabbath to be overlooked and/or mistaken for the routine sabbath.
_

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: Christ's Resurrection

Post #4

Post by Difflugia »

The narratives as written can't be reconciled. Any attempt at a four-Gospel harmonization, including yours, must necessarily ignore or change details from at least two of the narratives. Neither Matthew nor John can be harmonized with Mark and Luke, but Matthew and John can't be harmonized with each other, either. To wit:
WebersHome wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:59 amA handy fact to know about Christ's resurrection is that a preponderance of textual evidence indicates that his crucified dead body was restored to life during the third day rather than after the third day was completely over and done with.
This contradicts Mark 8:31, "...and after three days rise again."
WebersHome wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:25 pmThat being the case, then the three days and three nights predicted by Matt 12:40 would've run from Thursday sundown to Friday sundown, then from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and then from Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown.
This contradicts Luke 23:54, "It was the day of preparation [Friday] and the Sabbath was dawning." If Jesus was put on the cross on Thursday, then it would be Friday that was "dawning," not Saturday. Luke was being explicit to counter the exact ambiguity that you're trying to leverage.
WebersHome wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:53 am FYI: I highly recommend that we avoid Nisan dating for the simple reason that the Jews' religious calendar was running late that year; which is easily seen by the fact that Jesus dined on his Passover lamb before the Jews ate theirs. He being a prophet in direct contact with God would know the correct moment, whereas the Jews' methods are vulnerable to human error.
That's clever, but isn't suggested by the text and the only reason for such a speculation is to harmonize the Synoptics with John:

Mark 14:12
On the first day of unleavened bread, when they sacrificed the Passover, his disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and prepare that you may eat the Passover?”
John 18:28
They led Jesus therefore from Caiaphas into the Praetorium. It was early, and they themselves didn’t enter into the Praetorium, that they might not be defiled, but might eat the Passover.
If this harmonzation is justified, that would mean that "when they sacrificed the Passover" meant they day that "they" should sacrifice the Passover, but didn't and waited a day instead. That's not what it says, the language isn't ambiguous, and there's no mention of Jesus treating the Passover timeline any differently than the rest of Jerusalem's Jews.

Since John wanted Jesus to be the Passover sacrifice himself. In addition to the detail that the Passover meal had yet to be eaten when Jesus was arrested, the Last Supper was explicitly before the Passover (13:1) rather than the Passover meal itself. Again, there's no indication that Jesus treated the timing of the Passover any differently than anyone else.
WebersHome wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:53 amAlso; that particular week-end had two sabbaths to reckon with: one was the routine sabbath, and the other was the Passover sabbath which is a floating sabbath that coincides with the first night of the feast of Unleavened Bread. The two sabbaths were in such close proximity that particular year that it's common for the Passover sabbath to be overlooked and/or mistaken for the routine sabbath.
This is commonly asserted as part of apologetic attempts at harmonization, but whenever the "Preparation" (παρασκευή) appears in post-exilic Jewish or Christian texts without modification (i.e. without something like "preparation of the Passover"), it universally means "Friday." The only verse that's at all ambiguous about what "the Preparation" means is John 19:14 ("...it was the Preparation Day of the Passover...") and that may actually mean "the Friday of the Passover week."
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: Christ's Resurrection

Post #5

Post by Difflugia »

Some years ago, I put together a synopsis/timeline of the Last Supper and crucifixion, so I'll reproduce it here. Quotations are from the ESV.

Announcing the Passover

Mk 14:1 It was now two days before the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to arrest him by stealth and kill him,
Mt 26:2 "You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified."
Lk 22:1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover.
Jn 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father...

John's Last Supper begins

Jn 13:2 During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him,

The last supper begins and takes five chapters. There is no mention of the Passover between 13:1 and 18:28.

When is John's Passover?

Jn 18:28 Then they led Jesus from the house of Caiaphas to the governor's headquarters. It was early morning. They themselves did not enter the governor's headquarters, so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover.

John specifies that this is the morning before the Passover meal, the "first day of Unleavened Bread" of the Synoptics. Jesus has already eaten the Last Supper and been arrested. The trial before Pilate begins.

Jn 19:22 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour.

The trial has concluded and Jesus is about to be led to Golgotha. It is now six hours after sunrise. This is the only time between the four gospels that the day prior to the Passover is called the "day of Preparation". When it's referred to in the Synoptics, it's always called the "first day of Unleavened Bread". In every other case, even in John, "day of Preparation" means Friday.

What day of the week is it?

Jn 19:31 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.

It is now the day of Preparation (Friday). John is the only gospel to mention breaking legs. Jesus dies before evening.

Jn 19:42 So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, since the tomb was close at hand, they laid Jesus there.

Jesus is dead. It is now the time that the Passover meal would be eaten in the Synoptics, however the Passover meal itself is not mentioned in John.

Meanwhile...

Preparation for the Passover

Mk 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
Mt 26:17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
Lk 22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it."

The Last Supper/Passover

Mk 14:17-18 And when it was evening, he came with the twelve. And as they were reclining at table...
Mt 26:20 When it was evening, he reclined at table with the twelve.
Lk 22:14-15 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.

In the Synoptics, the Passover meal now concludes. Jesus is arrested and taken before the council.

Following the arrest

Mk 15:1 And as soon as it was morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council.
Mt 27:1 When morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death.
Lk 22:66 When day came, the assembly of the elders of the people gathered together, both chief priests and scribes.

It is now the morning following the Passover meal.

The death of Jesus

Mk 15:33 And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mt 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
Lk 23:44-45 It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, while the sun's light failed.

It's nine hours after sunrise on the day following the Passover meal and Jesus is dead.

What day of the week is it?

Mk 15:42-43 And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
Mt 27:57-58 When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him.
Lk 23:50-54 Now there was a man named Joseph, from the Jewish town of Arimathea. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man, who had not consented to their decision and action; and he was looking for the kingdom of God. This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a tomb cut in stone, where no one had ever yet been laid. It was the day of Preparation, and the Sabbath was beginning.

In Mark and Luke, it's specifically Friday. Matthew has removed the reference to the day of Preparation. These are the only verses linking the crucifixion to a particular day of the week, Friday in this case.

Mt 27:62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate

Each of the Synoptics mentions "the day of Preparation" a single time. Matthew has moved his from the Joseph of Arimathea pericope and moved it here. It is also the only verse in Matthew that anchors the crucifixion to Friday. I now think the word after was originally absent, placing Matthew's crucifixion on Thursday, but still mirroring the wording of both Mark and Luke.

The empty tomb

Mk 16:1 When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb.
Mt 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
Lk 24:1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared.
Jn 20:1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

By all accounts, it's now Sunday morning. Jesus exited the tomb sometime prior to this.

Matthew's Last Supper/Passover meal was eaten on Wednesday evening and Jesus was crucified on Thursday.

Mark's and Luke's Last Suppers/Passover meals were eaten on Thursday evening and Jesus was crucified on Friday.

John's Last Supper was eaten on Thursday. He was crucified on Friday. His Passover meal would have been eaten on Friday evening.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1779
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: Christ's Resurrection

Post #6

Post by WebersHome »

.
Were I the Devil, I would do my utmost to question the resurrection of Jesus Christ's crucified dead body because his crucifixion is only half enough to protect people from the wrath of God. Though his physical body's death obtains forgiveness for people's sins, its death doesn't gain them exoneration.


Rom 4:25 . . He was delivered up for the sake of our trespasses, and was raised up for the sake of declaring us righteous.

The Greek word translated "righteous" is dikaiosis (dik-ah'-yo-sis) which means acquittal; defined as an adjudication of innocence.

People merely forgiven still carry a load of guilt; viz: they have a criminal record. The resurrection of Christ's crucified dead body deletes their record so that on the books, it's as though they've never been anything but 100% innocent.

This clearing of one's guilt that I'm talking about is obtained via the kindness and generosity of God through belief in the resurrection of Christ's crucified dead body. If the Devil can succeed in convincing people that Jesus' crucified body is still dead or, even better yet, make them question whether the man even existed at all; then they will fail to obtain an acquittal, and consequently end up put to death in brimstone because records are to be reviewed when people stand to face justice at the event depicted at Rev 20:11-15.
_

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: Christ's Resurrection

Post #7

Post by Difflugia »

WebersHome wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:41 pmWere I the Devil, I would do my utmost to question the resurrection of Jesus Christ's crucified dead body because his crucifixion is only half enough to protect people from the wrath of God. Though his physical body's death obtains forgiveness for people's sins, its death doesn't gain them exoneration.
Were I the Devil (and God were real), I'd do my utmost to convince earnest Christian that the most important part of God's message is its historical accuracy. I'd sow the idea that it's worth diluting God's statements through His chosen Evangelists in order to protect the mere illusion of literal harmony and that changing or removing parts of His Word in order to do so isn't the most depraved of sins.
WebersHome wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:41 pm If the Devil can succeed in convincing people that Jesus' crucified body is still dead or, even better yet, make them question whether the man even existed at all; then they will fail to obtain an acquittal, and consequently end up put to death in brimstone because records are to be reviewed when people stand to face justice at the event depicted at Rev 20:11-15.
How harshly will He judge those that willfully corrupt His message in order to match their own ideas of what that message should be? If Matthew's Jesus eats the Passover with his disciples, but John's Jesus doesn't, how does that affect God's message to you? If you are uncomfortable that such contradictions can also be the Word of God, do you think God's expectation is for you to change that Word until it fits your personal expectations? Is God playing petty word games with you? If you want to see who it is that plays word games with the Bible, ponder what's going on in Matthew 4:1-11.

When you must change the simple and straightforward language of the Four Evangelists to fit your own preconceived notions, are you asking God to reveal His Son to you, or are you telling Him what his Son must be?
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
WebersHome
Guru
Posts: 1779
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: Christ's Resurrection

Post #8

Post by WebersHome »

.
Although Rom 10:9 requires that folks believe Jesus' crucified dead body was restored to life, I don't think it's required that they believe everything there is to know about it.

Take for example the Jehovah's Witnesses. They insist that Jesus' crucified body is still dead and its remains squirreled away on earth in a condition, and a location, known only to God. So even if their take on dikaiosis were to be 100% correct, they'll still end up on the wrong side of the afterlife.
_

Post Reply