Debating science.....

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Jose Fly
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Debating science.....

Post #1

Post by Jose Fly »

....With People Who Don't Know Science But Try To Debate It Anyways (sorry for the long title) :D

For reasons that I won't get into in this OP, in my 20+ years of debating creationists I've often been struck by how often a creationist who knows very little about evolutionary biology, biology, or even science in general nevertheless thinks themselves qualified to not only speak as an authority about them, but to also make rather grand assertions about them.

So a while ago, I came up with the following analogy/scenario to demonstrate how that comes across to those of us who do have some level of expertise and knowledge. I give you a debate about the Bible between (hypothetical) me and someone we'll call "Mrs. Marple".

Jose Fly: Christianity is a farce and the Bible is completely wrong on everything it states.

Mrs. Marple: That’s not true. On what do you base your assertions?

JF: For example, when Jesus said, "Physician, heal thyself" to the lepers, he showed the cruelty that lies at the heart of Christianity.

MM: What? Jesus never said that! Here, read Luke 17:11-19.

JF: You are obviously biased. Plus, I don’t see how any Christian can go along with reincarnation.

MM: Christianity doesn’t have reincarnation as a belief.

JF: Yes it does. What happened to Jesus after he died? Doesn’t Jesus also speak of being "born again"?

MM: Jesus was resurrected, not reincarnated and "born again" refers to spiritual rebirth.

JF: So you agree that my position is supported by the facts. I’m just interpreting them differently than you.

MM: No you’re not. You’re distorting them and basing your interpretation on a total misunderstanding.

JF: SEE! You’re being dogmatic! You just won’t allow any interpretation of the facts other than your own biased one. Besides, like I said Christianity is a very cruel system.

MM: Why?

JF: Like when Moses came up from Death Valley with the 7 commandments, he got so mad when he saw the Babylonians worshiping a sheep, he grabbed the closest woman to him and smashed her on the rocks. That’s really mean.

MM: Oh brother! There’re so many errors in what you said, I don’t even know where to start! Have you actually read any of the Bible?

JF: So now I’m ignorant eh? Ad hominem! That’s how you Christians have been able to maintain your place in society. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically labeled as ignorant. I imagine this is how it works in Sunday School; anyone who expresses a different view is made to feel like an idiot and called ignorant.

MM: But you ARE ignorant of the stories in the Bible! Your posts show that very well. Here, read the story of Moses and the Ten Commandments for yourself. Read Exodus 19-20.

JF: Again you keep resorting to ad hominem. That’s all you can do. I disagree with you, so I must be ignorant. But like I said, Christianity is cruel. I know because I've studied it.

MM: What have you studied?

JF: I’m not a good record keeper.

MM: Did you read books? What were the titles?

JF: You keep trying to make this about me. Like I said, Christianity is cruel, like when Jesus told the lepers, "Physician, heal thyself".

MM: I already showed you how that was wrong!

JF: I’ve seen enough to convince me which side of the argument I stand on. Like the story of Noah. How many Christians are there that don’t buy the story of God telling Noah to build an earthquake resistant house and save twelve of every marsupial, right before he destroyed all life on earth with a massive, global quake.

MM: Oh please, just stop. You obviously know NOTHING about anything in the Bible at all. Please, you’re just exposing more of your ignorance with each post.

JF: More ad hominem. That’s all you have isn’t it? Just like Jesus telling the lepers, "Physician, heal thyself."

MM: How many times do I have to show you that Jesus healed the lepers? I keep showing you, and you keep denying that Jesus healed them!

JF: That's not true.

MM: Why not?

JF: I'm not wasting my time explaining, you'll never accept what I say anyways because you're wedded to your cruel religion, like when Jesus was confronted by a hungry crowd who were going to stone Him, and he appeased them by casting his nets over the side of the boat and feeding the multitude with ratfish and salt water. That’s just mean.

MM: Please stop. Do you know anything about the Bible?

JF: Here you go again, just like Jesus when he told the lepers, "Physician, heal thyself".

MM: This is beyond ridiculous.

JF: More ad hominem. I'm going to the mods!


For debate: What do folks think drives some people to try and debate subjects they know little to nothing about? Lack of self-awareness (they don't recognize their ignorance)? Pride? Arrogance? Something else?
Last edited by Jose Fly on Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debating science.....

Post #2

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Jose Fly in post #1]
I give you a debate about the Bible between (hypothetical) me and someone we'll call "Mrs. Marple".
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Can you edit the OP to include/add a specific question for debate?

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Can you edit the OP to include a question for debate?
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Re: Debating science.....

Post #3

Post by Jose Fly »

DrNoGods wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:05 am Can you edit the OP to include/add a specific question for debate?
I'll give it a shot, but if you want to delete it that's okay too, since it doesn't seem to have generated much interest.
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Re: Debating science.....

Post #4

Post by benchwarmer »

Jose Fly wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:58 pm What do folks think drives some people to try and debate subjects they know little to nothing about?
My guess is that they think they know more than they actually do. Often we see apologists simply parroting (essentially cutting and pasting) from creationist websites that claim to have all the answers. Perhaps they feel that those folks who contributed to the creationist sites must know what they are talking about because it seems to line up with the apologists own preconceived beliefs.

I rarely witness apologists accept correction on topics they are obviously not experts in (or often even have a passing understanding of). At that point I guess it's pride or possibly the fear of allowing themselves to let something chip away at their faith.

It's quite perplexing to me really. I would think that following the best, scientific evidence will eventually lead to the real god if such a thing exists. It seems some would rather accept some ancient ideas instead, regardless if they conflict with reality.

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Re: Debating science.....

Post #5

Post by Miles »

benchwarmer wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:53 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:58 pm What do folks think drives some people to try and debate subjects they know little to nothing about?
My guess is that they think they know more than they actually do. Often we see apologists simply parroting (essentially cutting and pasting) from creationist websites that claim to have all the answers. Perhaps they feel that those folks who contributed to the creationist sites must know what they are talking about because it seems to line up with the apologists own preconceived beliefs.

I rarely witness apologists accept correction on topics they are obviously not experts in (or often even have a passing understanding of). At that point I guess it's pride or possibly the fear of allowing themselves to let something chip away at their faith.

It's quite perplexing to me really. I would think that following the best, scientific evidence will eventually lead to the real god if such a thing exists. It seems some would rather accept some ancient ideas instead, regardless if they conflict with reality.
I think it comes down to a matter of saving face and saving what they believe to be the truth of their religion. Actual facts don't matter because they simply can't be right when they conflict with what they've been told by buffoons such as "Dr." Kent Hovind and Ken Ham.


,

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Re: Debating science.....

Post #6

Post by Jose Fly »

benchwarmer wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:53 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:58 pm What do folks think drives some people to try and debate subjects they know little to nothing about?
My guess is that they think they know more than they actually do. Often we see apologists simply parroting (essentially cutting and pasting) from creationist websites that claim to have all the answers. Perhaps they feel that those folks who contributed to the creationist sites must know what they are talking about because it seems to line up with the apologists own preconceived beliefs.
Definitely. IMO a lot of creationist organizations and websites set their followers up to fail. They present their arguments as if they're irrefutable and don't do much to prepare their readers for the rebuttals they will inevitably face.

But then.....
I rarely witness apologists accept correction on topics they are obviously not experts in (or often even have a passing understanding of). At that point I guess it's pride or possibly the fear of allowing themselves to let something chip away at their faith.
Exactly! If it was just a matter of them being duped by their sources and nothing else, then we'd see at least some of them acknowledge it, incorporate the new info into their thinking and arguments, and disavow the sources that duped them. Instead see the exact opposite almost universally....they double down.

And that's what tells me your last point is likely the main factor here.....even though they claim to be talking science, what they're really doing is justifying and defending their religious beliefs. That's very personal and puts them in a very defensive position where from a risk management standpoint, it's better to double down on their arguments no matter how wrong they are than to potentially jeopardize their faith. IOW, from their perspective it's better to be thought of as an idiot by a bunch of "evolutionists" than to risk a crisis of faith.
It's quite perplexing to me really. I would think that following the best, scientific evidence will eventually lead to the real god if such a thing exists. It seems some would rather accept some ancient ideas instead, regardless if they conflict with reality.
True, but that's an objective way of thinking, something creationists don't seem to be very interested in.
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Re: Debating science.....

Post #7

Post by Jose Fly »

Miles wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:06 pm I think it comes down to a matter of saving face and saving what they believe to be the truth of their religion.
Bingo! :approve:
Actual facts don't matter because they simply can't be right when they conflict with what they've been told by buffoons such as "Dr." Kent Hovind and Ken Ham.
Or more importantly to them, what they glean from their reading of the Bible. I mean, Answers in Genesis makes that mindset abundantly clear in their statement of faith....

No apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field of study, including science, history, and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture obtained by historical-grammatical interpretation.

Doesn't get much clearer than that.
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Re: Debating science.....

Post #8

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Jose Fly in post #1]

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No question for debate.

Moved to Random Ramblings. Please review the Rules and Tips on starting a debate topic.

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