Hi all! I'm exploring Christianity and am hoping to post a number of questions that have been raised in my mind since I started researching.
It seems the questions I have aren't answered anywhere and so I figured it was time for me to engage more meaningfully with Christian people to try and fill the gaps in my understanding.
First question for discussion.
Was Satan in the Garden of Eden? As the serpent, correct?
And the Bible says God created everything in 6 days - so Eden and Adam and Eve were all the first things to exist in the first 6 days of Creation.
Logic would then suggest the story of the angel getting booted from Heaven and becoming Satan occurs after this time.
So who was the serpent in the Garden? Satan didn't exist yet.
Follow up question (just came to me) - how did Satan not exist yet when the Bible says God created *everything* in 6 days?
Was Satan in the Garden of Eden?
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Re: Was Satan in the Garden of Eden?
Post #2Peace to you!
To back that up though (a second witness), I did a quick search to see when the first mention of angels occurs in the bible, and angels were spoken of in connection to the Garden of Eden account, when they were set to guard the way back to the Garden and to Tree of Life (Genesis 3). So angels are definitely said to have existed at the time of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
Peace again to you!
Yes, he was in the Garden of Eden, and yes, he was the serpent (the dragon, the ancient serpent as referred to in Revelation 20:2 and 12:9).PurpleClover wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:44 pm Hi all! I'm exploring Christianity and am hoping to post a number of questions that have been raised in my mind since I started researching.
It seems the questions I have aren't answered anywhere and so I figured it was time for me to engage more meaningfully with Christian people to try and fill the gaps in my understanding.
First question for discussion.
Was Satan in the Garden of Eden? As the serpent, correct?
He did exist at that time (as did Christ). The creation account doesn't mention exactly when angels were created.And the Bible says God created everything in 6 days - so Eden and Adam and Eve were all the first things to exist in the first 6 days of Creation.
Logic would then suggest the story of the angel getting booted from Heaven and becoming Satan occurs after this time.
So who was the serpent in the Garden? Satan didn't exist yet.
Good question, and with that, it seems that you received the answer to your own question. Angels had to have existed at that time.Follow up question (just came to me) - how did Satan not exist yet when the Bible says God created *everything* in 6 days?
To back that up though (a second witness), I did a quick search to see when the first mention of angels occurs in the bible, and angels were spoken of in connection to the Garden of Eden account, when they were set to guard the way back to the Garden and to Tree of Life (Genesis 3). So angels are definitely said to have existed at the time of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
Peace again to you!
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Re: Was Satan in the Garden of Eden?
Post #3Considering that a "serpent" is a snake.tam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:33 pm Peace to you!
Yes, he was in the Garden of Eden, and yes, he was the serpent (the dragon, the ancient serpent as referred to in Revelation 20:2 and 12:9).PurpleClover wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:44 pm Hi all! I'm exploring Christianity and am hoping to post a number of questions that have been raised in my mind since I started researching.
It seems the questions I have aren't answered anywhere and so I figured it was time for me to engage more meaningfully with Christian people to try and fill the gaps in my understanding.
First question for discussion.
Was Satan in the Garden of Eden? As the serpent, correct?
serpent /ˈsɚpənt/ noun
plural serpents
: a usually large snake
source: The Britannica Dictionary
plural serpents
: a usually large snake
source: The Britannica Dictionary
The use of "snake" to describe a dragon
dragon
dragon /ˈdrægən/ noun
plural dragons
: an imaginary animal that can breathe out fire and looks like a very large lizard with wings, a long tail, and large claws
source: The Britannica Dictionary
dragon /ˈdrægən/ noun
plural dragons
: an imaginary animal that can breathe out fire and looks like a very large lizard with wings, a long tail, and large claws
source: The Britannica Dictionary
as it appears in
Revelation 20:2
2 The angel grabbed the dragon, that old snake, also known as the devil or Satan. The angel tied the dragon with the chain for 1000 years.
2 The angel grabbed the dragon, that old snake, also known as the devil or Satan. The angel tied the dragon with the chain for 1000 years.
and
Revelation12:9
9 It was thrown down out of heaven. (This giant dragon is that old snake, the one called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world into the wrong way.) The dragon and its angels were thrown to the earth.
9 It was thrown down out of heaven. (This giant dragon is that old snake, the one called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world into the wrong way.) The dragon and its angels were thrown to the earth.
functions as a metaphor, not as a factual description. Now why Revelation uses the term "dragon," a limbed animal, to describe Satan is anyone's guess, but that's Revelation for you. Maybe Genesis 3 simply got it all wrong:
Genesis 3:
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
.
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Re: Was Satan in the Garden of Eden?
Post #4Logic shouldn't be used when trying to 'figure out the bible' and what it says. Logically, no talking and burning bush that isn't consumed exists, yet the bible says it did.PurpleClover wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:44 pm Hi all! I'm exploring Christianity and am hoping to post a number of questions that have been raised in my mind since I started researching.
It seems the questions I have aren't answered anywhere and so I figured it was time for me to engage more meaningfully with Christian people to try and fill the gaps in my understanding.
First question for discussion.
Was Satan in the Garden of Eden? As the serpent, correct?
And the Bible says God created everything in 6 days - so Eden and Adam and Eve were all the first things to exist in the first 6 days of Creation.
Logic would then suggest the story of the angel getting booted from Heaven and becoming Satan occurs after this time.
So who was the serpent in the Garden? Satan didn't exist yet.
Follow up question (just came to me) - how did Satan not exist yet when the Bible says God created *everything* in 6 days?
EVERYTHING being created within a week? Where's the logic in that? No where, really.
Looking around at all the different views of god amongst god's own believers also shows that logic isn't the friend of christianity.
So I'd advise not using logic to understand the bible (or most any religious text).
To your specific question
That said, it would see the falling of the angels happened sometime between day 1 & day 7. And if god created EVERYTHING, this would include satan/the devil. And if god knows EVERYTHING, then god knew what was going to happen with satan and Adam and Eve before it happened, making it part of its 'plan'.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Was Satan in the Garden of Eden?
Post #5There's nothing in the Bible that equates the serpent in the Garden with Satan. The serpent was just a crafty, talking snake, presumably with legs (or wings, according to some commentators). Part of the story is an explanation of why snakes slither without appendages.PurpleClover wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:44 pmWas Satan in the Garden of Eden? As the serpent, correct?
The story as you're thinking of it isn't in the Bible. Isaiah 14 has sometimes been read that way. Revelation mentions a war in Heaven during which Satan is cast down to Earth, but it's not presented as his origin story or anything.PurpleClover wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:44 pmLogic would then suggest the story of the angel getting booted from Heaven and becoming Satan occurs after this time.
Just a clever snake.PurpleClover wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:44 pmSo who was the serpent in the Garden? Satan didn't exist yet.
If we regard the story of Satan's casting out of Heaven as true, that doesn't mean that's when he began to exist, just when he lost God's favor.PurpleClover wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:44 pmFollow up question (just came to me) - how did Satan not exist yet when the Bible says God created *everything* in 6 days?
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
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Re: Was Satan in the Garden of Eden?
Post #6Peace to you,
This is a bit off topic because Satan is clearly defined as the devil, the ancient serpent, the dragon (so that the serpent and the 'dragon' are used interchangeably, though really it is a drakon, not a westernized mythological dragon).
https://www.google.com/search?q=chinese ... =747&dpr=1
https://shutterstock.7eer.net/c/2204609 ... 1665485905
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-ph ... 819875.jpg
Most of the modern "Christian" art depicts the serpent in the Garden of Eden as a plain old actual snake. But it is not and never was a mere snake. It was a seraph (a fiery**, flying being, commonly called an 'angel'). The serpent in the Garden of Eden is a seraph, the one who is the Adversary, the one called Satan or the devil.
In the Vatican (and I am not promoting the RCC as being true, because it is not true... no religion is true. Christ is the PERSON who is the Truth; John 14:6), there is a older carving of Adam and Eve and the Tree of knowing good and bad, and the serpent. The serpent does not look at all like a snake. It has the winding body, sure, but the head is not a snake at all (resembles more the ancient depiction of a serpent/drakon). Whoever the artist was, that person knew this was not a mere 'snake'.
From wiki as well:
Remember also the copper serpent that Moses was told to make in the desert? So that the people of Israel - when bitten by snakes and scorpions' could look upon the Copper Serpent and be healed? That serpent is copper because copper would glow, appearing fiery (and there are multiple references to this bronze, fiery appearance in others: Rev 1:15, 2:18, Daniel 10:6 <- all of these specific examples are describing Christ). The copper serpent that Moses held up was a depiction. The actual copper serpent is Christ, to whom we can look and be healed. Not at all a snake. But rather a spirit being.
Religions depict angels as attractive human beings with wings, but of course that is not what a seraph is. Nor is it the outside of the cup (the appearance) that matters, but rather the inside of the cup. Christ had nothing in his appearance to attract people to him. People did not follow him because of his appearance. His sheep (given to Him by His Father) listened to His voice (John 10).
**For nobspeople, it was not the bush that was burning or speaking. It was the seraph IN the bush that was "fiery" (in appearance) and speaking. Bushes don't speak.
*** I'm going to try to figure out how to get those images imbedded, rather than just the links.
Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
This is a bit off topic because Satan is clearly defined as the devil, the ancient serpent, the dragon (so that the serpent and the 'dragon' are used interchangeably, though really it is a drakon, not a westernized mythological dragon).
Miles have you considered more eastern depictions of drakons (huge serpents)?*** (the following images are just examples, not perfect; I'm having a hard time finding a good depiction of a traditional ancient eastern drakon). But these might help you get a sense of a drakon being a serpent, rather than a serpent meaning only 'snake'. Remember also that Abraham came from the East, before being called to come out of that land and his father's people because they were taking up practices that were not from God.Miles wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:16 amConsidering that a "serpent" is a snake.tam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:33 pm Peace to you!
Yes, he was in the Garden of Eden, and yes, he was the serpent (the dragon, the ancient serpent as referred to in Revelation 20:2 and 12:9).PurpleClover wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:44 pm Hi all! I'm exploring Christianity and am hoping to post a number of questions that have been raised in my mind since I started researching.
It seems the questions I have aren't answered anywhere and so I figured it was time for me to engage more meaningfully with Christian people to try and fill the gaps in my understanding.
First question for discussion.
Was Satan in the Garden of Eden? As the serpent, correct?
serpent /ˈsɚpənt/ noun
plural serpents
: a usually large snake
source: The Britannica Dictionary
The use of "snake" to describe a dragon
dragon
dragon /ˈdrægən/ noun
plural dragons
: an imaginary animal that can breathe out fire and looks like a very large lizard with wings, a long tail, and large claws
source: The Britannica Dictionary
as it appears in
Revelation 20:2
2 The angel grabbed the dragon, that old snake, also known as the devil or Satan. The angel tied the dragon with the chain for 1000 years.
and
Revelation12:9
9 It was thrown down out of heaven. (This giant dragon is that old snake, the one called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world into the wrong way.) The dragon and its angels were thrown to the earth.
functions as a metaphor, not as a factual description. Now why Revelation uses the term "dragon," a limbed animal, to describe Satan is anyone's guess, but that's Revelation for you. Maybe Genesis 3 simply got it all wrong:
Genesis 3:
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
.
https://www.google.com/search?q=chinese ... =747&dpr=1
https://shutterstock.7eer.net/c/2204609 ... 1665485905
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-ph ... 819875.jpg
Most of the modern "Christian" art depicts the serpent in the Garden of Eden as a plain old actual snake. But it is not and never was a mere snake. It was a seraph (a fiery**, flying being, commonly called an 'angel'). The serpent in the Garden of Eden is a seraph, the one who is the Adversary, the one called Satan or the devil.
In the Vatican (and I am not promoting the RCC as being true, because it is not true... no religion is true. Christ is the PERSON who is the Truth; John 14:6), there is a older carving of Adam and Eve and the Tree of knowing good and bad, and the serpent. The serpent does not look at all like a snake. It has the winding body, sure, but the head is not a snake at all (resembles more the ancient depiction of a serpent/drakon). Whoever the artist was, that person knew this was not a mere 'snake'.
From wiki as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeraphIn Hebrew, the word saraph means "burning", and is used seven times throughout the text of the Hebrew Bible as a noun, usually to denote "serpent",[5] twice in the Book of Numbers, once in the Book of Deuteronomy, and four times in the Book of Isaiah (6:2–6, 14:29, 30:6). The reason why the word for "burning" was also used to denote a serpent is not universally agreed upon; it may be due to a certain snake's fiery colors, or perhaps the burning sensation left by its venomous bite. Regardless, its plural form, seraphim, occurs in both Numbers and Isaiah, but only in Isaiah is it used to denote an angelic being; likewise, these angels are referred to only as the plural seraphim – Isaiah later uses the singular saraph to describe a "fiery flying serpent", in line with the other uses of the term throughout the Tanakh.
Remember also the copper serpent that Moses was told to make in the desert? So that the people of Israel - when bitten by snakes and scorpions' could look upon the Copper Serpent and be healed? That serpent is copper because copper would glow, appearing fiery (and there are multiple references to this bronze, fiery appearance in others: Rev 1:15, 2:18, Daniel 10:6 <- all of these specific examples are describing Christ). The copper serpent that Moses held up was a depiction. The actual copper serpent is Christ, to whom we can look and be healed. Not at all a snake. But rather a spirit being.
Religions depict angels as attractive human beings with wings, but of course that is not what a seraph is. Nor is it the outside of the cup (the appearance) that matters, but rather the inside of the cup. Christ had nothing in his appearance to attract people to him. People did not follow him because of his appearance. His sheep (given to Him by His Father) listened to His voice (John 10).
**For nobspeople, it was not the bush that was burning or speaking. It was the seraph IN the bush that was "fiery" (in appearance) and speaking. Bushes don't speak.
*** I'm going to try to figure out how to get those images imbedded, rather than just the links.
Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Was Satan in the Garden of Eden?
Post #7Nope. The stories all take place in the mid-east, not the east.tam wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:33 pm Peace to you,
This is a bit off topic because Satan is clearly defined as the devil, the ancient serpent, the dragon (so that the serpent and the 'dragon' are used interchangeably, though really it is a drakon, not a westernized mythological dragon).
Miles have you considered more eastern depictions of drakons (huge serpents)?***Miles wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:16 amConsidering that a "serpent" is a snake.tam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:33 pm Peace to you!
Yes, he was in the Garden of Eden, and yes, he was the serpent (the dragon, the ancient serpent as referred to in Revelation 20:2 and 12:9).PurpleClover wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:44 pm Hi all! I'm exploring Christianity and am hoping to post a number of questions that have been raised in my mind since I started researching.
It seems the questions I have aren't answered anywhere and so I figured it was time for me to engage more meaningfully with Christian people to try and fill the gaps in my understanding.
First question for discussion.
Was Satan in the Garden of Eden? As the serpent, correct?
serpent /ˈsɚpənt/ noun
plural serpents
: a usually large snake
source: The Britannica Dictionary
The use of "snake" to describe a dragon
dragon
dragon /ˈdrægən/ noun
plural dragons
: an imaginary animal that can breathe out fire and looks like a very large lizard with wings, a long tail, and large claws
source: The Britannica Dictionary
as it appears in
Revelation 20:2
2 The angel grabbed the dragon, that old snake, also known as the devil or Satan. The angel tied the dragon with the chain for 1000 years.
and
Revelation12:9
9 It was thrown down out of heaven. (This giant dragon is that old snake, the one called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world into the wrong way.) The dragon and its angels were thrown to the earth.
functions as a metaphor, not as a factual description. Now why Revelation uses the term "dragon," a limbed animal, to describe Satan is anyone's guess, but that's Revelation for you. Maybe Genesis 3 simply got it all wrong:
Genesis 3:
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
.
I know. It was a talking snake/serpent.Most of the modern "Christian" art depicts the serpent in the Garden of Eden as a plain old actual snake. But it is not and never was a mere snake.
..............
..............................................SNAKE......................................................................SERPENT
.............................
.................................DRAGON. Neither snake nor serpent
I await your compelling evidence.It was a seraph (a fiery**, flying being, commonly called an 'angel'). The serpent in the Garden of Eden is a seraph, the one who is the Adversary, the one called Satan or the devil.
I fail to see the connection, so I can't care.In the Vatican (and I am not promoting the RCC as being true, because it is not true... no religion is true. Christ is the PERSON who is the Truth; John 14:6), there is a older carving of Adam and Eve and the Tree of knowing good and bad, and the serpent. The serpent does not look at all like a snake. It has the winding body, sure, but the head is not a snake at all (resembles more the ancient depiction of a serpent/drakon). Whoever the artist was, that person knew this was not a mere 'snake'.
From wiki as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeraphIn Hebrew, the word saraph means "burning", and is used seven times throughout the text of the Hebrew Bible as a noun, usually to denote "serpent",[5] twice in the Book of Numbers, once in the Book of Deuteronomy, and four times in the Book of Isaiah (6:2–6, 14:29, 30:6). The reason why the word for "burning" was also used to denote a serpent is not universally agreed upon; it may be due to a certain snake's fiery colors, or perhaps the burning sensation left by its venomous bite. Regardless, its plural form, seraphim, occurs in both Numbers and Isaiah, but only in Isaiah is it used to denote an angelic being; likewise, these angels are referred to only as the plural seraphim – Isaiah later uses the singular saraph to describe a "fiery flying serpent", in line with the other uses of the term throughout the Tanakh.
I fail to see the relevance, so again, I'm not caring.Remember also the copper serpent that Moses was told to make in the desert? So that the people of Israel - when bitten by snakes and scorpions' could look upon the Copper Serpent and be healed? That serpent is copper because copper would glow, appearing fiery (and there are multiple references to this bronze, fiery appearance in others: Rev 1:15, 2:18, Daniel 10:6 <- all of these specific examples are describing Christ). The copper serpent that Moses held up was a depiction. The actual copper serpent is Christ, to whom we can look and be healed. Not at all a snake. But rather a spirit being.
Religions depict angels as attractive human beings with wings, but of course that is not what a seraph is. Nor is it the outside of the cup (the appearance) that matters, but rather the inside of the cup. Christ had nothing in his appearance to attract people to him. People did not follow him because of his appearance. His sheep (given to Him by His Father) listened to His voice (John 10).
.
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Re: Was Satan in the Garden of Eden?
Post #8Peace again to you,
[Replying to Miles in post #7]
The relevance and connection is that the serpent in the Garden of Eden is not a snake (a little green grass snake or a rattlesnake or a boa constrictor, etc... talking or otherwise). It is about a drakon/a seraph: a fiery flying serpent. The wiki article shows Isaiah as defining a seraph as a fiery flying SERPENT. This is obviously not a mere snake (talking or otherwise). Revelation also makes clear that serpent and dragon are the same creature (well, the transliteration is actually drakon). There are also many different depictions of drakons in the world, yet you are hung up on the modern westernized depiction which does not much resemble a huge serpent, rather than the more ancient depictions. You say you are awaiting evidence, but it is all there, even referenced in the very book that contains the account of Adam and Eve and the serpent in the Garden of Eden.
I understand the confusion in getting hung up on the idea that the serpent in the garden of eden is just a snake, because of the erring pen of the scribes, and because of teachers in religion who do not have a clue. But a serpent does not always denote a snake. A serpent is also depicted as a drakon, a seraph, a fiery flying being. That is a fact.
Just some things to consider... or not, as you choose.
Peace again to you and to you all.
[Replying to Miles in post #7]
The relevance and connection is that the serpent in the Garden of Eden is not a snake (a little green grass snake or a rattlesnake or a boa constrictor, etc... talking or otherwise). It is about a drakon/a seraph: a fiery flying serpent. The wiki article shows Isaiah as defining a seraph as a fiery flying SERPENT. This is obviously not a mere snake (talking or otherwise). Revelation also makes clear that serpent and dragon are the same creature (well, the transliteration is actually drakon). There are also many different depictions of drakons in the world, yet you are hung up on the modern westernized depiction which does not much resemble a huge serpent, rather than the more ancient depictions. You say you are awaiting evidence, but it is all there, even referenced in the very book that contains the account of Adam and Eve and the serpent in the Garden of Eden.
I understand the confusion in getting hung up on the idea that the serpent in the garden of eden is just a snake, because of the erring pen of the scribes, and because of teachers in religion who do not have a clue. But a serpent does not always denote a snake. A serpent is also depicted as a drakon, a seraph, a fiery flying being. That is a fact.
Just some things to consider... or not, as you choose.
Peace again to you and to you all.
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Re: Was Satan in the Garden of Eden?
Post #9[Replying to tam in post #2]
OK so angels existed, but did Satan?
How can we say "Satan has always existed" when the bible tells a story of a disobedient, fallen angel becoming Satan? An event which occurred after the serpent deceived Eve in Eden.
So who deceived Eve?
OK so angels existed, but did Satan?
How can we say "Satan has always existed" when the bible tells a story of a disobedient, fallen angel becoming Satan? An event which occurred after the serpent deceived Eve in Eden.
So who deceived Eve?
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Re: Was Satan in the Garden of Eden?
Post #10Miles wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:16 amtam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:33 pm Peace to you!
PurpleClover wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:44 pm Maybe Genesis 3 simply got it all wrong:
I'm sorry?? Doesn't seem a very Christian response....or is it? Are many Christians willing to accept that parts of the bible could simply be "wrong"??