Jeremiah 8:8

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Athetotheist
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Jeremiah 8:8

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Post by Athetotheist »

The excuse made for Jesus countermanding the law of Moses is the claim that he was "restoring" the law, and one of the arguments put forth for that claim is Jeremiah 8:8 which, in Christian Bibles, is often translated something like this:

How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the Law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. (NASB)

Ironically, this translation is itself unreliable. Here's the verse as it's translated on the Jewish Virtual Library site:

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Notice that the verse does not accuse the scribes of having a "lying pen". If you start at the beginning of chapter 8 and read up to this point, you'll see it actually saying that it does no good for the scribes to copy the law down if the people aren't going to follow it.

The "lying pen" line seems to have come along fairly recently (even the KJV has the verse translated correctly). In any case, the Jeremiah 8:8 argument for Jesus' departures from Mosaic law doesn't work.

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Re: Jeremiah 8:8

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Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 9:49 am The excuse made for Jesus countermanding the law of Moses is the claim that he was "restoring" the law, and one of the arguments put forth for that claim is Jeremiah 8:8 which, in Christian Bibles, is often translated something like this:

How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the Law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. (NASB)

Ironically, this translation is itself unreliable. Here's the verse as it's translated on the Jewish Virtual Library site:

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Notice that the verse does not accuse the scribes of having a "lying pen". If you start at the beginning of chapter 8 and read up to this point, you'll see it actually saying that it does no good for the scribes to copy the law down if the people aren't going to follow it.

The "lying pen" line seems to have come along fairly recently (even the KJV has the verse translated correctly). In any case, the Jeremiah 8:8 argument for Jesus' departures from Mosaic law doesn't work.
Following up from this post on another thread:

viewtopic.php?p=1096471#p1096471


Here is the meaning of the word translated 'vain':

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... v/wlc/0-1/
sheqer, sheh'-ker; from H8266; an untruth; by implication, a sham (often adverbial):—without a cause, deceit(-ful), false(-hood, -ly), feignedly, liar, lie, lying, vain (thing), wrongfully.

Here is a link to a copy of the verse in many different translations; all have the same meaning (even though the KJV uses the word vain):

https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/8-8.htm


You have to be careful applying a modern meaning to a word (vain). The meaning of words evolve.



**

More than just the meaning of the word, there is also Christ explicit statement that at least one law given by Moses was given - not because it was true - but because of the hard-hardheartedness of the people. That law (the one on divorce) was an allowance made for the people because of the hard-hearts, but Christ came and taught what had always been true.

Christ also, at various points, said "Woe to you scribes."

Why would He say that if the scribes were not committing error?

Plus, we KNOW that there are scribal errors in what is written. Translation errors; word choices that are based upon doctrine rather than upon truth. Such as inserting the one word 'hell' in the place of three different words, confusing the issue regarding the so-called doctrine of hell.

So add up the word in Jeremiah 8:8 actually meaning falsehood, with Christ saying 'woe to you scribes', and with the the fact that there are indeed errors in what is written, even if you just count translation errors. Add in the fact that some laws were given not because they were true, but because of the hard-hearts of the people (so those laws were given as an allowance for the people, rather than because they were true)... and you should be able to see that it is not the written that is the Truth or the Way or the Image and Word of God. It is Christ who is the Truth (including the Truth of God), the Way, the Image and Word of God. Christ is the One who teaches us what is true, Christ is the One who reveals His Father to us as His Father truly is, including what His Father truly desires.

Christ is also the One to whom God has said to listen.

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."



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Re: Jeremiah 8:8

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Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to tam in post #2
You have to be careful applying a modern meaning to a word (vain). The meaning of words evolve.
It isn't just about translation; it's also about context.

In Jeremiah 8:1-7, Jehovah is rebuking the people for not following him. Then in verse 8 he asks, "How do you say 'we are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us'?" If the scribes had lied in their writing and led the people astray, that would be the answer to the question. But he lays it on the people themselves. So the only interpretation which makes sense is that the people have the law written properly and just aren't following it.
More than just the meaning of the word, there is also Christ explicit statement that at least one law given by Moses was given - not because it was true - but because of the hard-hardheartedness of the people. That law (the one on divorce) was an allowance made for the people because of the hard-hearts, but Christ came and taught what had always been true.
This is another problem. Jesus says that some of the law was given as an allowance for hard-heartedness, but the law itself makes clear that it leaves room for no such allowances:

"So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today—to love the LORD your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deut. 11:13)

"When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God." (Deut. 13:18)

For those to be the reasons for the people to follow the law, following the law would have to be sufficient for doing what was right. If, on the other hand, there was any room for not doing what was right by keeping the law, it would make Moses a false teacher for saying that they could do what was right by keeping all the law as it was written.

Furthermore, the law of Moses makes clear that it speaks for itself:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. (Deut. 30:11-14)

If----as the law itself said----it was "not in heaven", then there was no need for Jesus or anyone else to bring it down from heaven and explain it. The law said that it was already "very near you". The only logical conclusion to draw from that is that if the law itself claimed to offer no allowance for hard-heartedness, then no such allowance was to be taught as part of the law. (Deut. 4:2)

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Re: Jeremiah 8:8

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Post by tam »

Peace to you,

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #3]

The meaning of the word is the meaning of the word, athetotheist.

You seem to be missing the point that it is not the law - but rather it is Christ - who reveals God to us; who is the Word of God, who is the Truth.

But if a person is going to look at the law instead of looking at and listening to Christ (or anything other than Christ Himself), how are they going to hear what is true, or even see clearly (Rev 3:18)?

Because if a person is looking at the law covenant, a veil covers their heart. Only in Christ is that veil removed. Why would you want to keep that veil?

When I started studying the bible, trying to know what was true, to know what God wanted of me... some of the law and parts of the OT seemed harsh. But my Father in heaven drew me to His Son (when I asked to know truth, when I asked to be led wherever He wanted me to be), and it is only when turning to Christ that I could hear and see what was true, that I could see and know God (the God and Father of Christ) as God truly is. Not from words on paper, but in the spirit, within me, from the One who is the Truth (Christ Jaheshua), the LIVING Word and Image of God.


I never fully understood Paul's words in Corinthians 3 until now, but perhaps they will help you (and/or another reader) now:

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious[/u][/i]? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.




May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to hear the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride say to YOU, "Come!" May anyone who thirsts and anyone who wishes "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE!"

(which water is holy spirit, that is poured out from Christ to anyone He chooses, as has been given to Him without end from His Father)


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Re: Jeremiah 8:8

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Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to tam in post #4
The meaning of the word is the meaning of the word, athetotheist.
Yes, and the meaning of the word [sheqer] in the context of Jeremiah 8 is "a vain thing", as it is in numerous other places:

Now David had said, Surely in vain have I kept all that this fellow hath in the wilderness, so that nothing was missed of all that pertained unto him: and he hath requited me evil for good. (1 Sam 25:21)

An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength. (Ps. 33:17)

Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel. (Jer. 3:23)
You seem to be missing the point that it is not the law - but rather it is Christ - who reveals God to us; who is the Word of God, who is the Truth.
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:37-40)

When Jesus "sets aside" part of the law as "hard-heartedness", isn't he making himself least in the kingdom of heaven by his own definition?

I remember a Jewish commentator proposing that Jesus may have been the Christian Messiah, but stating that he wasn't the Jewish Messiah. It seems to me that the mismatches between Jesus and Moses's teaching----and sometimes between Jesus and his own teaching----support that view.

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Re: Jeremiah 8:8

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Post by tam »

Peace to you,

Just a quick follow up on the word:
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 8:03 pm [Replying to tam in post #4
The meaning of the word is the meaning of the word, athetotheist.
Yes, and the meaning of the word [sheqer] in the context of Jeremiah 8 is "a vain thing", as it is in numerous other places:

Now David had said, Surely in vain have I kept all that this fellow hath in the wilderness, so that nothing was missed of all that pertained unto him: and he hath requited me evil for good. (1 Sam 25:21)

An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength. (Ps. 33:17)

Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel. (Jer. 3:23)
From Strong's definition (brown-driver-briggs lexicon), here is where the word falls in Jeremiah 8:8:

2. deceit, fraud, wrong : עשׂה (ל) שׁ׳ do or practise fraud, wrong Hosea 7:1; Jeremiah 6:13; Jeremiah 8:8, 10; with בְ, 2 Samuel 18:13; שׁ׳פְּצֻלַּת Proverbs 11:18; לֶ֫חֶם שׁ׳ Proverbs 20:17 food got by fraud; זֶ֫רע שׁ׳ Isaiah 57:4; עֵט שׁ׳ Jeremiah 8:8; ילד שׁ׳ Psalm 7:15 (|| עמל); דרךְ לשׁון קשׁת שׁ׳ Jeremiah 9:2; בְּשׁ׳ Jeremiah 3:10 (|| בגד), adverb שׁקד fraudulently, wrongfully Psalm 35:19; Psalm 38:20; Psalm 69:5; Psalm 119:78; Psalm 119:86.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... v/wlc/0-1/

Don't forget that Christ also said 'woe to you scribes' and don't forget that we know for a fact that there are scribal errors in the text, even if just from translation errors (as was stated in my original post on the other thread).

As for the law on divorce, Christ did not tell the people what they could or could not do; He told them why they had been given an allowance in the matter of divorce, and He told them what was true from the beginning. What they did (what anyone does) with that (or any other) truth is up to them. No one would have been breaking any law by NOT divorcing for any or every reason.

But please also note that it is also written that God hates divorce, and please also note that unfaithfulness was the one thing that God divorced Israel for (sending her away with a certificate of divorce, see Jeremiah 3). Both of these things support what Christ said.

The other about divorce and breaking faith with the wife of one's youth is here (from Malachi 3):

And this is another thing you do: You cover the altar of [the LORD] with tears, with weeping and groaning, because He no longer regards your offerings or receives them gladly from your hands. 14Yet you ask, “Why?” It is because [the LORD] has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have broken faith, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15Has not [the LORD] made them one, having a portion of the Spirit? And why one? Because He seeks godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. “For I hate divorce,” says [the LORD], the God of Israel. “He who divorces his wife covers his garment with violence,” says [the LORD] of Hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit and do not break faith.




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Re: Jeremiah 8:8

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Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to tam in post #6
From Strong's definition (brown-driver-briggs lexicon), here is where the word falls in Jeremiah 8:8:

2. deceit, fraud, wrong : עשׂה (ל) שׁ׳ do or practise fraud, wrong Hosea 7:1; Jeremiah 6:13; Jeremiah 8:8, 10; with בְ, 2 Samuel 18:13; שׁ׳פְּצֻלַּת Proverbs 11:18; לֶ֫חֶם שׁ׳ Proverbs 20:17 food got by fraud; זֶ֫רע שׁ׳ Isaiah 57:4; עֵט שׁ׳ Jeremiah 8:8; ילד שׁ׳ Psalm 7:15 (|| עמל); דרךְ לשׁון קשׁת שׁ׳ Jeremiah 9:2; בְּשׁ׳ Jeremiah 3:10 (|| בגד), adverb שׁקד fraudulently, wrongfully Psalm 35:19; Psalm 38:20; Psalm 69:5; Psalm 119:78; Psalm 119:86.
Under "Strong's info" on the same page, "seqher" is translated as "vain" in Jer. 8:8 and not as "lie", "liar", "deceit", "deceitful", "false" or "falsehood" as it is elsewhere (I previously listed several passages in which the meaning is clearly "vain"). The BDB lexicon may go with the mistranslation, but mistranslation is still indicated by the context.

"Vain" is also how the word is translated on the Jewish Virtual Library site, and I'm guessing that those translators know their own language.

Notice also what Jer. 8:8 says: Lo, certainly in vain made he it. Who is "he" and what is "it"? This comes right after the mention of the law of Jehovah. Would the author be saying that Jehovah was lying?
Christ did not tell the people what they could or could not do; He told them why they had been given an allowance in the matter of divorce
But what Jesus tells them about why divorce is allowed is inconsistent with what Moses tells them. Deut. 1:3 states that Moses told the people "all that the Lord had given him in commandment unto them". So when Jesus says that Moses allowed divorce for the hardness of their hearts, he's really saying that Jehovah allowed divorce for the hardness of their hearts because, according to Dt. 1:3, the allowance for divorce came from Jehovah. But since Dt.11:13 and 13:18 commanded them to keep all of the law in order to love Jehovah with all their hearts and do what was right in his eyes, the allowance for divorce could not have been against Jehovah's will. So what Jesus says about why divorce was allowed cannot be correct.
But please also note that it is also written that God hates divorce
But as the law of Moses shows, hating divorce doesn't mean prohibiting divorce.

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Re: Jeremiah 8:8

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Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:46 am [Replying to tam in post #6
From Strong's definition (brown-driver-briggs lexicon), here is where the word falls in Jeremiah 8:8:

2. deceit, fraud, wrong : עשׂה (ל) שׁ׳ do or practise fraud, wrong Hosea 7:1; Jeremiah 6:13; Jeremiah 8:8, 10; with בְ, 2 Samuel 18:13; שׁ׳פְּצֻלַּת Proverbs 11:18; לֶ֫חֶם שׁ׳ Proverbs 20:17 food got by fraud; זֶ֫רע שׁ׳ Isaiah 57:4; עֵט שׁ׳ Jeremiah 8:8; ילד שׁ׳ Psalm 7:15 (|| עמל); דרךְ לשׁון קשׁת שׁ׳ Jeremiah 9:2; בְּשׁ׳ Jeremiah 3:10 (|| בגד), adverb שׁקד fraudulently, wrongfully Psalm 35:19; Psalm 38:20; Psalm 69:5; Psalm 119:78; Psalm 119:86.
Under "Strong's info" on the same page, "seqher" is translated as "vain" in Jer. 8:8 and not as "lie", "liar", "deceit", "deceitful", "false" or "falsehood" as it is elsewhere (I previously listed several passages in which the meaning is clearly "vain"). The BDB lexicon may go with the mistranslation, but mistranslation is still indicated by the context.
I don't know what example you are referring to, but the word has the meaning at Jeremiah 8:8 as in #2.

Here are the preceding verses to Jeremiah 8:8,

I have listened and heard; they do not speak what is right. No one repents of his wickedness, asking, ‘What have I done?’ Everyone has pursued his own course like a horse charging into battle. 7Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons. The turtledove, the swift, and the thrush keep their time of migration, but My people do not know the requirements of [the LORD]. 8How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the Law of the LORD is with us,’ when in fact the lying pen of the scribes has produced a deception?

Here are the verses that come after:

The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of [the LORD], what wisdom do they really have? 10Therefore I will give their wives to other men and their fields to new owners. For from the least of them to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; from prophet to priest, all practice deceit.


REGARDLESS, the fact of the matter is that there are indeed lies/errors in the text, due to the lying/erring pen of the scribes. You can't possibly argue against that. Your entire argument here is DEPENDENT upon it being true.


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Re: Jeremiah 8:8

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Post by Diagoras »

Maybe ask Christ for the proper translation from the language he was speaking two thousand years ago? Or let him guide your pen hand to write his words in Hebrew, Aramaic or whatever? Surely he could do that easily enough.

Of course, the guy’s pretty old by now. Perhaps he’s become accustomed to only speaking American English and has forgotten the language of his birth.

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Re: Jeremiah 8:8

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Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to tam in post #8
I don't know what example you are referring to, but the word has the meaning at Jeremiah 8:8 as in #2.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... v/wlc/0-1/

Select "Show Strong's Info", scroll down and you'll find this:

KJV Translation Count — Total: 113x
The KJV translates Strong's H8267 in the following manner: lie (28x), lying (21x), false (20x), falsehood (13x), falsely (13x), vain (5x), wrongfully (4x), deceitful (2x), deceit (1x), liar (1x), miscellaneous (5x).


The translation of sheqer as "vain" includes its occurrences in Jer. 8:8.

Let's look at some others again:

Now David had said, Surely in vain have I kept all that this fellow hath in the wilderness, so that nothing was missed of all that pertained unto him: and he hath requited me evil for good. (1 Sam. 25:21)

Is David saying that he had been deceitful? If so, what is the good for which the man requited him with evil?

An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength. (Ps. 33:17)

Is the author saying that a horse is deceitful, or just that his strength is insufficient?

Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel. (Jer. 3:23)

Is it an act of deception to hope for salvation from the hills, or is it just fruitless?
How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the Law of the LORD is with us,’ when in fact the lying pen of the scribes has produced a deception?
Again, if this translation were correct the people could have blamed their disobedience on the lies of the scribes. Jehovah is holding the people directly responsible, indicating that the copying of the law by the scribes has been wasted on them.

And Jesus couldn't have exhorted the people to keep every jot and tittle of the law (Matthew 5:18-19) if it was rife with lying errors.

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