Sell your soul?

What would you do if?

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Kyrani99
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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #41

Post by Kyrani99 »

ttruscott wrote:
Kyrani99 wrote:
Yahu wrote: [Replying to post 1 by RobertUrbanek]

I already have. That is what it means to be a Christian, giving yourself to service to Yeshua. What was the price? Well Yeshua died for me for the forgiveness of all my sins, past, present and future. There is no way the devil could out bid that!
This is Pauline Christianity and it is made up.
That Gnostics hate Paul does not make them right nor him wrong...dogmatism is the father of sarcasm.
The fact that the Gnostics didn't like Paul, counts but it is not the big problem that I see in distrusting Paul.

Firstly Paul was involved in killing Christians. The Christians in question were Jews, who chose to follow a particular Jewish teacher. Certainly there were differences to accepted Jewish practice but it was not as if they were challenging the Jewish rabbis or trying to effect change to the Jewish faith. They were simply their own group amongst many other breakaway groups. To go after others and systematically kill them, time after time, takes a particular character. IMO one that has no compassion.

Secondly, Paul's account of his conversion on the road to Damascus, to kill Christians also smells foul. He claims that he saw the risen Jesus on the road and was literally blinded by the light. And that he became very fearful and sick afterwards. This is not a genuine spiritual experience, from my own experiences and that of many others that I have known in various religious groups, ranging from Christian to Buddhist and yoga to Sufi.

Thirdly, in a spiritual experience and its aftermath there is no physiological effects that are negative. NEVER that I know of. The person's attention is strongly drawn inward, so much so that they not aware of their surroundings. It is not that they lose consciousness because they are still able to stand or walk etc. It is that the focus of attention is captured. Paul says nothing like this.

Fourthly, after a spiritual experience (and an enlightenment experience, which are not the same), the person experiences a superior state of health. They have a highly ordered thinking, they are able to do things that they cannot do ordinarily in their thinking. For instance after one significant spiritual experience I was driving to the university where I was attending lectures, and I had not finished my maths assignment. While driving, I was able to solve the problems set, far more easily than I had ever done before AND I was able to recall the solutions with clarity so as to write them up after I had parked my car and before I went to my tutorial. I got full marks for my homework. A first! I also enjoyed good health for months afterwards. And others also noticed and commented that I had a high positive attitude. I found this consistent with others, with whom I had shared my experience and who had spiritual experiences.

Fifthly, Paul claims that when Ananias laid his hands on him and healed him so he got his sight back some old scabs fell out of his eyes. This does not sound true to me. It would have to be intense laser light to do that much damage.

Sixth, after that experience he went to Arabia for several years and wandered around. This also sounds sus.

What I see is that the Romans must have had a serious problem if they had tried to crush the Jews because the Eastern Roman Empire had a culture in common, Hellenism. And there were many, not only Greeks, who would have:
a. sympathized with the Jews and helped them counter the Romans, and
b. would have seen their opportunity to fight for their freedom. I had thought perhaps the Greeks could have done this because there were many Greek city states under Roman occupation as well as Greece itself. However I have since realized that as they shared a culture then many more than the Greeks would have joined in. So the Romans needed to disable the Greeks in particular as well as the others. This is where Paul comes into the picture.

If you look at his actions you find that he first went and converted the tribal people in what is northern Turkey today. Why? Was it because these tribes were used by the Greeks as mercenary soldiers to fight their battles?

Then he tackled the Greek mainland and especially places like Corinth, which were key military targets. The Romans had destroyed Corinth because they were trying to overcome the oppressive rule. Corinth was rebuilt but with a large Roman presence but it was still not secure.

Every time that Paul is arrested by the Romans, to supposedly be jailed, he ends up living in luxury at the Roman's expense, able to see whomever he wishes and carry on as normal. I don't know of anyone else that was jailed by the Romans, who was treated so well or even reasonably.

The Emperor Nero has him as a house guest for a few years and then lets him go.

And we are told that after a short time preaching, they had become charismatic leaders. This smacks of foul play, the same cheat probably that psychopathic people use in the "love at first sight cheat". Briefly a concealed threat is used so that the person only knows that they have highly emotional charge. Ideas such as "isn't she divine" or "isn't he gorgeous" are concurrently presented by some strongly related party. The person believes the ideas they think that they are having because of the high emotional charge that they feel. It is a trap. If Peter and Paul had the Roman soldiers at their beck and call, then something like this to become charismatic on mass is easily done.

Then there are the "miracles". According to Acts, even handkerchiefs and aprons that Paul had touched, and which were subsequently taken to the sick, had incredible healing qualities. And that goes for Peter as well. He managed to outdo every miracle that Paul did. A sick person only needed to walk into Peter's shadow to be healed. Really! Not even Jesus had such powers.

And Paul and Peter preached love thy enemies, forgive thy enemies and do good to those that harm you. These are ideals that degrade and dis-empower. In whose interest is all that? The Romans of course.

AFTER Paul has finished rounding up all the strays and bringing them into the fold, churches he and Peter set up, the Romans attacked and crushed the Jews, destroying their temple. Coincidence?

And this is only the short list as to why I distrust Paul and Peter.

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Kyrani99
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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #42

Post by Kyrani99 »

ttruscott wrote:
I've given you my views on much of your answer, in my answer to your next post.
puddleglum wrote: So it is obvious that after rebirth by which we become the legitimate children of GOD, we still must be trained (not forced) in righteousness to perfect our holiness since holiness, a perfect commitment to our GOD, must grow from a mind that is free to choose to be holy without coercion.
Being is holy, from the beginning when it was created by God.
It is a matter of intent, not to uphold ideas that bar the way to life after death.
An evil person is barred by their own intent. They exist in aloneness, in darkness and in their own rage, forever.
A humane/ Just person gains eternal life, it is by Grace, but they must work towards being worthy of that Grace. Sins don't bar the way, only transgressions, i.e., actions done deliberately against Justice.

I don't see a case for "train to be good". I see a case of clearing away the cobwebs, polishing the mirror and that needs to be done freely, without coercion. Coercion includes "discipline" and having to suffer etc.
"The Kingdom of God is within you" ~Jesus.

"To love is to know Me, thy innermost nature,
the truth that I AM!" ~Gita

I was drawn to the Beloved like a moth to a flame;
When I came to my senses I was burned up in the flame.
~ Asheq-e Esfahani

Ethics are spiritual but natural laws
http://liberatingethics.wordpress.com/

My criticism of the book “The God Delusion� by Richard Dawkins
http://kyrani99godnscience.wordpress.com/

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ttruscott
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Post #43

Post by ttruscott »

Kyrani99 wrote:
ttruscott wrote: Will you consider this idea that the new nature cannot sin but is capable of sinning as suspect in light of Heb 12:5-11? It is the legitimate reborn with a new nature children of GOD who are chastised for sin, no?
Firstly, I have no respect at all for the Apostle Paul because I have found too much of his actions and words don't hold to truth. So I dismiss this business about discipline because it won't yield results. It is rather like trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. You can't take a psychopath and turn them into a saint. And I don't believe God would ever chose a psychopath to deliver His message.
IF the Bible is NOT GOD's word, it can only be man's word and then we are all therefore making up our own religion in our own image, just like the non-religious scorn us for doing. Also, why do you often make contentions from the bible as if you believed it was true? Is it that you don't accept the Bible but you do accept Gnosticism (which is the truth you use to declare Paul to be in error) so you cherry pick ideas from the bible that would seem to support Gnosticism to convert (subvert?) Christians to your pov?

So, do you reject Paul because he stands against Gnosticism so clearly? I like Paul because he so clearly stands against Gnosticism. :shrug:
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Kyrani99
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Post #44

Post by Kyrani99 »

ttruscott wrote:
Kyrani99 wrote:
ttruscott wrote: Will you consider this idea that the new nature cannot sin but is capable of sinning as suspect in light of Heb 12:5-11? It is the legitimate reborn with a new nature children of GOD who are chastised for sin, no?
Firstly, I have no respect at all for the Apostle Paul because I have found too much of his actions and words don't hold to truth. So I dismiss this business about discipline because it won't yield results. It is rather like trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. You can't take a psychopath and turn them into a saint. And I don't believe God would ever chose a psychopath to deliver His message.
IF the Bible is NOT GOD's word, it can only be man's word and then we are all therefore making up our own religion in our own image, just like the non-religious scorn us for doing. Also, why do you often make contentions from the bible as if you believed it was true? Is it that you don't accept the Bible but you do accept Gnosticism (which is the truth you use to declare Paul to be in error) so you cherry pick ideas from the bible that would seem to support Gnosticism to convert (subvert?) Christians to your pov?

So, do you reject Paul because he stands against Gnosticism so clearly? I like Paul because he so clearly stands against Gnosticism. :shrug:
In post 41 above I said "The fact that the Gnostics didn't like Paul, counts but it is not the big problem that I see in distrusting Paul."

I do hold a certain amount of respect for the Gnostics, though even with them I do not accept everything without my own experience as a yardstick. However the reasons I gave had NOTHING to do with the Gnostics. Even if there were no Gnostics I would still have a problem with Paul, and Peter for that matter.

The question of "cherry picking".
IMO it is extremely naive to take any text as truth because there are evil people in the world and they do look to find a way to try and mislead others. I can see corruption in ALL religious texts, some more than others, but all have been tampered with for selfish reasons.

One of the ideas that preachers push is that you have to take the whole lot as God's Word or none at all. This is only to try and prevent people from being critical, from questioning as is their right to do. One of the biggest problems is that religious leaders want power over their subjects and that is best achieved by forcing them to accept it all without criticism. This is the reason why some things, like the Nicene Creed came into being.

Constantine the first was a Roman emperor and he sought to rule over Greeks. Greeks have not only been democratic in their outlook but by nature philosophize and argue the meaning of texts and their validity. Constantine on many occasions had to bring the army into the church to separate opposing factions in debate, as for example debate about the nature of the body of Christ.

So to rule over all of the people, all of the time, he ordered a council of bishops to come up with a solution to the problems that were being debated. He also influenced what they were to come up with because he wanted to become God's representative on earth. Any bishops that didn't tow his line got excommunicated and some even lost their lives. When one sees this sort of thing in historical documents and one know it has happened, then how on earth can one take everything that is written as the truth? And as God's Word? I can't.

It is not a case of cherry picking, and certainly not what one likes to believe and what not. It is a case of studying what is written and weighing it up against what else one knows. If you have had some spiritual experience then that helps but even without that you can study it and ask and eventually you will be guided to find the answers to the questions you have. I don't believe other stuff in the Bible too, that Paul never wrote because I have found sound reasons why it is not only not true, but harmful! Love thy enemies and forgive enemies and do good to enemies is, IMO, all false. Who were the enemies? The Romans. But even apart from the Romans, the enemy of all theists are the devils, the collection of evil people. Love evil people? WHAT!

All religious texts have been written by humans. However some humans are prophets and some sincere followers of those prophets. The words of prophets are not their own, but God speaking through them. To be a prophet is to be an avatar of God. SOME of the text in the Bible, as also in other texts, is the Word of God but some is not. YOU have to read and study it critically to find which parts you accept as The Truth and what is false. It is not a point of view but your understanding that matters. Religious texts are a guiding light when we read and understand what is genuine BUT the road to salvation, eternal life, is found when we turn and look within. There is the door way that is always open for the sincere seeker.
"The Kingdom of God is within you" ~Jesus.

"To love is to know Me, thy innermost nature,
the truth that I AM!" ~Gita

I was drawn to the Beloved like a moth to a flame;
When I came to my senses I was burned up in the flame.
~ Asheq-e Esfahani

Ethics are spiritual but natural laws
http://liberatingethics.wordpress.com/

My criticism of the book “The God Delusion� by Richard Dawkins
http://kyrani99godnscience.wordpress.com/

tugofwarstrum
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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #45

Post by tugofwarstrum »

[Replying to post 1 by RobertUrbanek]

In way yes, When I find the one and they are proven to be the one I will sell my soul in Love for their soul, and I will daily stroke their soul and breathe into it warmth, strength, and courage just as they will do unto mine.

jimtatertayte
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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #46

Post by jimtatertayte »

RobertUrbanek wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:33 pm Would you sell your soul if someone offered to buy it? If so, what would be your minimum asking price?

Presumably, the transaction would require some kind of documentation, perhaps a notarized transfer of title. A few years ago, a young woman offered to sell her soul on eBay but I don’t recall if there were any takers.
Before you can sell your soul you first must own it.

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