Loyalty

What would you do if?

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Misty
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Loyalty

Post #1

Post by Misty »

How far does your loyalty extend? Here are two scenarios

I. A close member of your family has committed a crime, you have asked them to hand themselves in, but they refuse, would you inform the police?

2. The vicar/pastor/priest at your church has been accused of interfering with a child. Some members of the congregation, think it should be covered up because they like his ministry, would you ask the police to investigate?

Thankfully I have never had any experience of this. In the first case I wouldn't let family loyalty get in the way of reporting the family member, even if it was my husband or child, however hard it would be to do so.

In the second case, if I attended a church, I would have no hesitation in reporting the clergyman.

In the 60s the pastor of our pentecostal church, a friend of my parents, volunteered to bring me home each week from the Wednesday night youth service, I was 14. He would drive with his left hand rubbing my thigh, telling me what a beautiful mother I had! In those days my mother was a stunner! I felt uncomfortable, and did mention it to my father who laughed, and didn't treat it seriously! If one of my children reported a similar incident to me the bloke concerned would have not only have his dangly bits tied tight around his neck, I would have asked the police to investigate.

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Post #11

Post by rreppy »

There is no universal agreement on what yardstick to use to determine the most ethical choice in a dilemma.
A common one in the Western tradition is to apply the scale of choosing "the greatest good for the greatest number of people". Obviously, this is often a good way to go. But not always. The Nazis truly believed that euthanizing babies with disabilities, or the mentally slow, or the debilitated elderly, genuinely benefited the German People as a whole. But most of us will agree that such actions are repugnant and morally wrong.
The Buddhists come closest to being right, in my opinion. They teach to judge an action by its consequences, as far into the future as you can project them. For example, surely we would all maintain that allowing an entire town of one's own countrymen to be slaughtered when one could easily prevent it would be morally reprehensible.
Yet, Winston Churchill was faced with exactly that dilemma in WWII, when he had to make the decision whether to act on intelligence that the Luftwaffe was going to bomb the town of Coventry out of existence. If he did nothing, thousands of men, women, and children would die. But if he alerted and evacuated the town, the Nazis would know we'd broken their code and we'd give up an advantage that may well tip the balance of the war (especially with D-Day being imminent).
In this case, the long-term consequence of saving the town could be the condemnation of all of England to Nazi slavery. Churchill, a moral man, had to sacrifice Coventry.
I think that is the yardstick to apply.

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Re: Loyalty

Post #12

Post by Suluby »

Misty wrote: How far does your loyalty extend? Here are two scenarios

I. A close member of your family has committed a crime, you have asked them to hand themselves in, but they refuse, would you inform the police?
Honestly, I'd have to say ..... it depends. If my young child filched a candy bar from a store, I wouldn't call the cops on him ..... I'd drag his butt back to the store, and make him return it. My older son, in his 20's got caught DUI. We hired a lawyer because I didn't want him punished unfairly ..... but I did not want him getting off. If he had hurt someone while DUI ..... it would have broken my heart, but he would have done time for his crime. I wouldn't have done anything to prevent that.

2. The vicar/pastor/priest at your church has been accused of interfering with a child. Some members of the congregation, think it should be covered up because they like his ministry, would you ask the police to investigate?

Thankfully I have never had any experience of this. In the first case I wouldn't let family loyalty get in the way of reporting the family member, even if it was my husband or child, however hard it would be to do so.

In the second case, if I attended a church, I would have no hesitation in reporting the clergyman.

In the 60s the pastor of our pentecostal church, a friend of my parents, volunteered to bring me home each week from the Wednesday night youth service, I was 14. He would drive with his left hand rubbing my thigh, telling me what a beautiful mother I had! In those days my mother was a stunner! I felt uncomfortable, and did mention it to my father who laughed, and didn't treat it seriously! If one of my children reported a similar incident to me the bloke concerned would have not only have his dangly bits tied tight around his neck, I would have asked the police to investigate.
That's a sad thing and I'm sorry you were subjected to such treatment.

If I knew - or even strongly suspected - that a clergy person was molesting a child, I would report it and demand that it be investigated. In your case, the actions of that pastor - although highly inappropriate - did not rise to the level of criminal molestation.

I would never laugh off or ignore a child's complaint of feeling uncomfortable with an adult ..... because it could be the 'grooming' behavior that some pedophiles use to prepare a victim for molestation. And I would do everything in my power to make sure that no other child was ever in the position of being touched in that way. I would confront him. If he did nothing to change the situation, I'd confront the elders. If they did nothing, I would go public. But I wouldn't ignore the behavior.

I have offered to be an alibi, though. A friend found out that her ex-husband was molesting their daughters, and had been for years. When the trial started, she said that if he got off, she would kill him and would need an alibi. I just looked at her and said, "We were at the mall the whole day."

He was convicted and spent years in prison ..... and will forever be branded a sex offender. So I didn't have to lie. But I would have.

.

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McCulloch
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Re: Loyalty

Post #13

Post by McCulloch »

Misty wrote: I. A close member of your family has committed a crime, you have asked them to hand themselves in, but they refuse, would you inform the police?
I'm going to make a few assumptions here. I will assume that if I had asked them to hand themselves in, that this is a serious violation of someone else' rights. I would not, for example, ask a close member of my family to turn themselves in for a parking violation. I will also assume that this is some kind of violation that cannot conceivably be settled in person. If a close family member had committed theft, I would not have asked them to turn themselves in to the authorities, in most cases. I would ask them to publicly return the item to the person or persons from whom it was stolen. Then the decision whether or not to involve the authorities would be the victim's not the perpetrator's.

Given these assumptions, then yes, I would inform the police if a close family member refused to acknowledge a serious violation of criminal law.
Misty wrote: 2. The vicar/pastor/priest at your church has been accused of interfering with a child. Some members of the congregation, think it should be covered up because they like his ministry, would you ask the police to investigate?
If the accusation has been made, then under Ontario law, there must be a police investigation. Anyone aware of the accusation who does acts to prevent such an investigation, is in violation of the law. This is as it should be. This applies to teachers, social workers, clergy, scout leaders, sports coaches etc. There is no special treatment for religious organizations. This also is as it should be.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Serpent Oracle
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Re: Loyalty

Post #14

Post by Serpent Oracle »

Misty wrote: How far does your loyalty extend? Here are two scenarios

I. A close member of your family has committed a crime, you have asked them to hand themselves in, but they refuse, would you inform the police?

2. The vicar/pastor/priest at your church has been accused of interfering with a child. Some members of the congregation, think it should be covered up because they like his ministry, would you ask the police to investigate?
1. I would inform the Police without hesitation.
Noone is above the law...I have to obey it...so shall everyone else.
However I am talking from a British justice system point of view...if I lived in the USA and in a state that sanctions state sponsored murder (capital punishment) and the crime committed was likely to attract a death sentence...then that would be different...I could not send my own son/brother/cousin to the electric chair, whatever he had done.

2. I don't attend Church and never will so I can't really answer, all I know is that I would drag the wretched pervert down the police station myself...with prejudice.

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Re: Loyalty

Post #15

Post by gnik »

Misty wrote: How far does your loyalty extend? Here are two scenarios

I. A close member of your family has committed a crime, you have asked them to hand themselves in, but they refuse, would you inform the police?

2. The vicar/pastor/priest at your church has been accused of interfering with a child. Some members of the congregation, think it should be covered up because they like his ministry, would you ask the police to investigate?
1) I would turn them in. They know what they did, and need to deal with the repercussions.

2)... well, I know that if my pastor was accused of that, that it would be a lie. He would never do such a thing. I know him very well. He's my Dad. If it wasn't my dad, I would suggest an investigation within the church. Find out where the idea came from. See if it has any ground. and if it did, then inform the police of our findings.

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Re: Loyalty

Post #16

Post by McCulloch »

gnik wrote: 2)... well, I know that if my pastor was accused of that, that it would be a lie. He would never do such a thing. I know him very well. He's my Dad. If it wasn't my dad, I would suggest an investigation within the church. Find out where the idea came from. See if it has any ground. and if it did, then inform the police of our findings.
This is a problem to me. Typical members of a church are not qualified or competent to investigate crime. If an accusation has been made, then it should be investigated by someone objective rather than people who see the accused as their spiritual leader. It should also be be investigated by experienced and trained professionals rather than well-meaning amateurs. Even if it is your dad. Many abusers have family members who seem genuinely surprised when this stuff comes out.

I'm sure that your dad is a fine fellow. But if there was such an accusation, which would you prefer: an objective professional investigation that clears him of wrongdoing or a quiet in-house investigation that might be seen as church damage control and hush up?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

gnik
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Re: Loyalty

Post #17

Post by gnik »

McCulloch wrote:
gnik wrote: 2)... well, I know that if my pastor was accused of that, that it would be a lie. He would never do such a thing. I know him very well. He's my Dad. If it wasn't my dad, I would suggest an investigation within the church. Find out where the idea came from. See if it has any ground. and if it did, then inform the police of our findings.
This is a problem to me. Typical members of a church are not qualified or competent to investigate crime. If an accusation has been made, then it should be investigated by someone objective rather than people who see the accused as their spiritual leader. It should also be be investigated by experienced and trained professionals rather than well-meaning amateurs. Even if it is your dad. Many abusers have family members who seem genuinely surprised when this stuff comes out.

I'm sure that your dad is a fine fellow. But if there was such an accusation, which would you prefer: an objective professional investigation that clears him of wrongdoing or a quiet in-house investigation that might be seen as church damage control and hush up?
I wouldn't trust most people to investigate. However, I personally would not report something like that unless there was some evidence. A pastor can be kicked out of not just the church, but the whole denomination. for being accused of such a thing, even if they were found to be innocent. Even if I know it isn't true, I would find value in finding where it started from.

However most people seem to not want a pastor who was accused of something serious because of the possibility of it being true. Also if my dad was accused, there wouldn't be a point in reporting it because there is literally no way it can be true. But that is his situation, not the norm.

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Post #18

Post by Sonofason »

Misty wrote: Chaosborders would you have reported the pastor of my church for inappropriate behaviour? Stroking my thigh was bang out of order, even though it didn't go any further. If I had been my parents I would have confronted him, demand his resignation then ask the police to investigate.
If I were you parent, I would have confronted the pastor. It's hard to know what would have come of that. Perhaps I'd have been convinced that you had quite an imagination. But if the pastor agitated me, or had seemed smug, or copped some sort of attitude about the situation, if he became angry, or in the least bit violent towards me, I'd have probably buried him in my back yard.

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Re: Loyalty

Post #19

Post by Sonofason »

Misty wrote: How far does your loyalty extend? Here are two scenarios

I. A close member of your family has committed a crime, you have asked them to hand themselves in, but they refuse, would you inform the police?

2. The vicar/pastor/priest at your church has been accused of interfering with a child. Some members of the congregation, think it should be covered up because they like his ministry, would you ask the police to investigate?

Thankfully I have never had any experience of this. In the first case I wouldn't let family loyalty get in the way of reporting the family member, even if it was my husband or child, however hard it would be to do so.

In the second case, if I attended a church, I would have no hesitation in reporting the clergyman.

In the 60s the pastor of our pentecostal church, a friend of my parents, volunteered to bring me home each week from the Wednesday night youth service, I was 14. He would drive with his left hand rubbing my thigh, telling me what a beautiful mother I had! In those days my mother was a stunner! I felt uncomfortable, and did mention it to my father who laughed, and didn't treat it seriously! If one of my children reported a similar incident to me the bloke concerned would have not only have his dangly bits tied tight around his neck, I would have asked the police to investigate.
1. It is not apparent to me what I would do. I have great loyalty to family. And I have little to no loyalty to society at large. It is likely that I would take the matter to my own hands. I have no problem with the idea of making someone pay their debt. Government is not necessary to punish people for their crimes.


2. It depends on who it was that was violated. Many people are violated every day, and I honestly don't really care. I mean, it bothers me, but I don't do anything about it. I don't go hunting down bad people. But if one should cross my path, or hurt someone close to me, I would be happy to dig a hole in my back yard and bury him.

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Mask of the Devil
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Post #20

Post by Mask of the Devil »

I. A close member of your family has committed a crime, you have asked them to hand themselves in, but they refuse, would you inform the police?

2. The vicar/pastor/priest at your church has been accused of interfering with a child. Some members of the congregation, think it should be covered up because they like his ministry, would you ask the police to investigate?

1. Not my business. But if the crime is heinous or crazy, I would definitely avoid spending more time with that person.

2. My loyalty for the Circle comes before any other human law. Also, I do not trust italian courtrooms.

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