Moral Dilemma

What would you do if?

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Elias Jezebelsbane
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Moral Dilemma

Post #1

Post by Elias Jezebelsbane »

I was a young newly wed. Because my relationship with my wife was so beautiful, others started coming to me for counseling on how we arranged our relationship. At the time I was in the Air Force and still living in the dormitory as was my wife.

One of the other girls in the dorm was a sweet Christian girl that had also recently gotten married. She and her new husband were trying to have a child while the AF would pay the medical expenses. He was a college student that lived about 60 miles away. They tried for months with no success. When they got checked out medically they found out that the new husband was sterile and could never have children according to the doctors.

At the time we didn't know but her dorm roommate was a witch and the local coven had placed a sterility curse on him with their witchcraft as a punishment for saving her virginity for her wedding night and declaring how special it had been while the coven was pushing for women to sleep around.

The couple had previously come to me for pre-marital counsel as well as sexual counsel for their honeymoon. They then came to me and my wife to tell us the situation. They explained that they had been to their pastor and he advised them that they could use a surrogate and used Tamar, the daughter-in-law of Judah as the basis. Granted in their case, the husband wasn't dead but permanently sterile. The younger brother of the husband was only 13 years old so they didn't think they could go to him. In fact, it would have been illegal due to his age.

They were also on a time constraint to have the child while she was still covered by military medical benefits. They explained the situation then dropped the bomb shell. The wife declared if she couldn't have her husband's child, she wanted to have mine because of our close friendship.

Instead of agreeing, we anointed the husband with oil and prayed for healing. I also directed them to ask their pastor and elders to anoint them and pray for him. If that didn't work we would consider the other. They tried for a few more months to conceive with no success and came back to see me and my wife to ask again if I could get her pregnant.

I told them that scripture declares that the body of the husband belongs to the wife and they would have to gain her permission, not mine. My wife declared that if she couldn't have her husband's child, that she wanted me to be the father of their child and gave her blessing.

We later found out that the sterility curse had been broken several times but the coven kept putting it back when the demon reported back to the sender. The local high priestess of the coven was my own wive's roommate and the entire situation had been set up to help destroy both of our marriages. They had also placed a love spell on the other woman towards me in an attempt to get us caught in an affair thus destroying both of our witnesses.

Here I had my wife pleading with me to give them a child but they wanted that child conceived in an act of love and the AF would not pay for fertility expenses. They also had scriptural backing for the situation as well as the full blessing of their families and pastor.

What do you do?

Me, I have a 21 year old biological son by her as a result. They used the husband's younger brother for their 3 later children. They never had a child by the husband. One of the coven members later got saved and filled us in on the activities of the coven.

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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post #2

Post by Adstar »

Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:I was a young newly wed. Because my relationship with my wife was so beautiful, others started coming to me for counseling on how we arranged our relationship. At the time I was in the Air Force and still living in the dormitory as was my wife.

One of the other girls in the dorm was a sweet Christian girl that had also recently gotten married. She and her new husband were trying to have a child while the AF would pay the medical expenses. He was a college student that lived about 60 miles away. They tried for months with no success. When they got checked out medically they found out that the new husband was sterile and could never have children according to the doctors.

At the time we didn't know but her dorm roommate was a witch and the local coven had placed a sterility curse on him with their witchcraft as a punishment for saving her virginity for her wedding night and declaring how special it had been while the coven was pushing for women to sleep around.

The couple had previously come to me for pre-marital counsel as well as sexual counsel for their honeymoon. They then came to me and my wife to tell us the situation. They explained that they had been to their pastor and he advised them that they could use a surrogate and used Tamar, the daughter-in-law of Judah as the basis. Granted in their case, the husband wasn't dead but permanently sterile. The younger brother of the husband was only 13 years old so they didn't think they could go to him. In fact, it would have been illegal due to his age.

They were also on a time constraint to have the child while she was still covered by military medical benefits. They explained the situation then dropped the bomb shell. The wife declared if she couldn't have her husband's child, she wanted to have mine because of our close friendship.

Instead of agreeing, we anointed the husband with oil and prayed for healing. I also directed them to ask their pastor and elders to anoint them and pray for him. If that didn't work we would consider the other. They tried for a few more months to conceive with no success and came back to see me and my wife to ask again if I could get her pregnant.

I told them that scripture declares that the body of the husband belongs to the wife and they would have to gain her permission, not mine. My wife declared that if she couldn't have her husband's child, that she wanted me to be the father of their child and gave her blessing.

We later found out that the sterility curse had been broken several times but the coven kept putting it back when the demon reported back to the sender. The local high priestess of the coven was my own wive's roommate and the entire situation had been set up to help destroy both of our marriages. They had also placed a love spell on the other woman towards me in an attempt to get us caught in an affair thus destroying both of our witnesses.

Here I had my wife pleading with me to give them a child but they wanted that child conceived in an act of love and the AF would not pay for fertility expenses. They also had scriptural backing for the situation as well as the full blessing of their families and pastor.

What do you do?

Me, I have a 21 year old biological son by her as a result. They used the husband's younger brother for their 3 later children. They never had a child by the husband. One of the coven members later got saved and filled us in on the activities of the coven.
You did not give a detail that is important, to me anyway.

Was your 21 year old Biological son born by artificial means or was it done by the traditional method?

They did use the scripture you referred to as support for their request to you. But that scripture clearly states it must be the brother who impregnates the woman not a non relative like yourself.

From what you have said the primary issue that lead to you bring pursued was the desire of the woman to qualify for the military medical subsidy. It was not the desire for a child that was secondary. The woman could have waited a few years for her husbands brother to be of age.


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Post #3

Post by Cathar1950 »

An old man went into confession and told the priest: "Father, I'm 81, married with six children and 13 grandchildren. Last night I had an affair and made love to two 18-year-old girls. Twice."
"I see," said the priest. "When was the last time you were in confession?"

"Never, Father", replied the old man. "I'm Jewish"

"So why are you telling me?"

"I'm telling everybody!"

Elias Jezebelsbane
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post #4

Post by Elias Jezebelsbane »

Adstar wrote:
You did not give a detail that is important, to me anyway.

Was your 21 year old Biological son born by artificial means or was it done by the traditional method?

They did use the scripture you referred to as support for their request to you. But that scripture clearly states it must be the brother who impregnates the woman not a non relative like yourself.

From what you have said the primary issue that lead to you bring pursued was the desire of the woman to qualify for the military medical subsidy. It was not the desire for a child that was secondary. The woman could have waited a few years for her husbands brother to be of age.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I gave all the important details. It isn't my job to meet other people's requirements.

The means of the pregnancy is irrelevant. In the case of Tamar it was done the normal way.

No scripture does NOT state that it has to be a brother. In the case of Tamar, it was Judah, her father-in-law that got her pregnant after Judah's sons failed to produce a child. Obviously you don't understand the spirit of the law. The reason it had to be a close relative was to keep the inheritance in the same family. Property was not to leave the tribe. In our case the inheritance wasn't an issue so they went to a brother-in-christ instead of a brother by blood.

What angered Yah in the case of Judah's sons Onan was his greed. The eldest son got a double inheritance. With the eldest son dead with no heir, the 2nd son would get an even greater double inheritance of the remaining sons but if he raised up a child to his dead elder brother, that child got the double inheritance thus reducing Onan's portion greatly. Onan wanted the sex with his brother's wife but did not want her to have a child. The ONLY reason he was to violate his brother's wife was to produce that child. Yah killed him for his GREED.

Tamar married Judah's eldest son with the understanding that he would get the double inheritance. That property would maintain her the rest of her life. Without a child, she had no means to support herself the rest of her life.

This situation for a childless marriage was written into the Mosaic law later to make it an exception to the sexual law.

The Levirate Rights were an exception that a brother should not 'uncover the nakedness' of his brother's wife. It was for the purpose of granting a child to a woman that couldn't have that child by her own husband. That was the purpose of the law, to make an exception to the sexual law.

Ruth fell into the same situation. Naomi instructed Ruth to go to Boaz after he had feasted and drank then uncover him after he went to sleep for the purpose of claiming her rights to a child by him. Boaz went the extra mile by marrying her and restoring the property into the family early. It would have returned to Ruth's son at the next Jubilee year anyway. Boaz was not require to marry her, just produce a child.

The point is there are exceptions to the sexual law where the production of a child is the reason. One of Yah's very 1st commandments is to be fruitful and multiply.


Without the military medical benefits to cover the costs, they could not have had a child for many years. The AF benefits would NOT cover artificial fertility treatments either. Her husband was a college student and had no medical coverage for his wife. She was providing those benefits while he finished college and maintained her support while he got his own business going after graduation.

Our situation tends to be attacked by Pharisaical christians that go by the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law. The purpose of the sexual law is to help prevent problems within our lives. The child produced was a blessing to the couple granted by a close friend, not a problem. That child even carries my first name as his middle name.

If you are suggesting that we were in sin, then I suggest you worry about your own beam. We were not in sin. There is nothing to repent of. This wasn't about satisfying lust with another man's wife. It was the gift of a child by a close friend that loved them that made it an exception to the sexual law.

Yes, the love spell placed on Estelle did influence her desire to have that child by me instead of her young brother-in-law. Once we found out about that, we made sure that was broken. That was many years later and too late to break off the sterility curse placed on her husband. He had been killed in a car accident the year before. She ended up marrying her brother-in-law to raise the children.

The only problems they had due to the situation was problems with the younger brother interfering in their lives because he was the natural father of their 3 younger children. He caused great problems and they wished they had gone to me for additional children but I was across the country when I left the Air Force.

I have never seen the son. He didn't even find out about the situation until he was 16.

Elias Jezebelsbane
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Post #5

Post by Elias Jezebelsbane »

Cathar1950 wrote:An old man went into confession and told the priest: "Father, I'm 81, married with six children and 13 grandchildren. Last night I had an affair and made love to two 18-year-old girls. Twice."
"I see," said the priest. "When was the last time you were in confession?"

"Never, Father", replied the old man. "I'm Jewish"

"So why are you telling me?"

"I'm telling everybody!"
I am assuming your post is to imply this is about bragging. It isn't. It is about teaching.

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Post #6

Post by Goat »

Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:An old man went into confession and told the priest: "Father, I'm 81, married with six children and 13 grandchildren. Last night I had an affair and made love to two 18-year-old girls. Twice."
"I see," said the priest. "When was the last time you were in confession?"

"Never, Father", replied the old man. "I'm Jewish"

"So why are you telling me?"

"I'm telling everybody!"
I am assuming your post is to imply this is about bragging. It isn't. It is about teaching.

Is it? You're presentation of Levitate marriages is entirely incorrect, and not scriptural sounds. It has to be a brother, and only after the first brother died. It also is not something that ever was adopted by Christianity, and it is pretty much obsolete in the Jewish religion too.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #7

Post by Cathar1950 »

Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:An old man went into confession and told the priest: "Father, I'm 81, married with six children and 13 grandchildren. Last night I had an affair and made love to two 18-year-old girls. Twice."
"I see," said the priest. "When was the last time you were in confession?"

"Never, Father", replied the old man. "I'm Jewish"

"So why are you telling me?"

"I'm telling everybody!"
I am assuming your post is to imply this is about bragging. It isn't. It is about teaching.
Teaching what?

If everyone agreed I just don't see a moral dilemma not reasons to use some ancient laws to justify it.
I also think your depiction the sexual practice of others rather speculative and misleading. They were doing the same things for El and Yahweh.
In addition, child sacrifice was not always required, unless you loved God, made an oath or wanted to do something special it was more of an ideal. :P

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Post #8

Post by Elias Jezebelsbane »

Cathar1950 wrote:
Elias Jezebelsbane wrote: I am assuming your post is to imply this is about bragging. It isn't. It is about teaching.
Teaching what?

If everyone agreed I just don't see a moral dilemma not reasons to use some ancient laws to justify it.
I also think your depiction the sexual practice of others rather speculative and misleading. They were doing the same things for El and Yahweh.
In addition, child sacrifice was not always required, unless you loved God, made an oath or wanted to do something special it was more of an ideal. :P
Teach what? Have you ever had to deal with witchcraft on that type of personal basis?

The dilemma was the fact that if the sterility curse had been broken off permanently, they could have had their own child. I never considered the fact that he could have been healed but had the curse put back immediately over and over again while everyone assumed that he just hadn't been healed.

Another thing that bothers me is that I refused to father their addition children and they also had to turn to the younger brother for their 3 additional children. Because of his close association, it caused problems within their family because he saw himself as the father of the 3 younger children. They wished that they had never gone to the brother due to the problems that caused.

BTW, your reference to El and Yahweh don't make sense. Which 'El' are you referring to, the Canaanite pagan deity 'El' or the Hebrew 'El'? El just means 'mighty One' and is dependent on the context and who the speaker is referring towards. Yes, some pagan sexual corruption did cause a lot of problems and many of the prophets came against it heavily. I understand that pagan corruption because I studied it for years. The coven I was dealing with at the time was led by a high priestess of Ashtoreth and was trying to recreate the practices of the groves.

Now as far as misleading on the sexual law. If you study Ruth in the Hebrew, Naomi specifically tells Ruth to have intercourse with Boaz after he goes to sleep. That was specifically covered in my Hebrew course at Bible college at a major denominational university. I am NOT misrepresenting that.

Phariseeism tends to expand on the law of Yah to include things around it to prevent the possibility of sin. The accusations against Yeshua for healing on the Sabbath is an example. They attack anyone that breaks their expanded religious rules put in place as the traditions of man. Christianity tends to be very Pharisaical when it comes to sexual law and of course we know what both John the Baptist and Yeshua had to say about Phariseeism. That is another reason I posted this thread, to help identify the local Pharisees.

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Post #9

Post by Elias Jezebelsbane »

Goat wrote:
Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:An old man went into confession and told the priest: "Father, I'm 81, married with six children and 13 grandchildren. Last night I had an affair and made love to two 18-year-old girls. Twice."
"I see," said the priest. "When was the last time you were in confession?"

"Never, Father", replied the old man. "I'm Jewish"

"So why are you telling me?"

"I'm telling everybody!"
I am assuming your post is to imply this is about bragging. It isn't. It is about teaching.

Is it? You're presentation of Levitate marriages is entirely incorrect, and not scriptural sounds. It has to be a brother, and only after the first brother died. It also is not something that ever was adopted by Christianity, and it is pretty much obsolete in the Jewish religion too.
But it teaches the nature of Yah so therefore it is not obsolete. Whether Christianity adopts something as a standard practice or not is irrelevant, that would just make it a 'tradition of man'. The law of Yah is to be written onto our hearts, not dictated by the traditions of man. There are all kinds of evil doctrines within Christianity based on traditions of man.

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Post #10

Post by Goat »

Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
Goat wrote:
Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:An old man went into confession and told the priest: "Father, I'm 81, married with six children and 13 grandchildren. Last night I had an affair and made love to two 18-year-old girls. Twice."
"I see," said the priest. "When was the last time you were in confession?"

"Never, Father", replied the old man. "I'm Jewish"

"So why are you telling me?"

"I'm telling everybody!"
I am assuming your post is to imply this is about bragging. It isn't. It is about teaching.

Is it? You're presentation of Levitate marriages is entirely incorrect, and not scriptural sounds. It has to be a brother, and only after the first brother died. It also is not something that ever was adopted by Christianity, and it is pretty much obsolete in the Jewish religion too.
But it teaches the nature of Yah so therefore it is not obsolete. Whether Christianity adopts something as a standard practice or not is irrelevant, that would just make it a 'tradition of man'. The law of Yah is to be written onto our hearts, not dictated by the traditions of man. There are all kinds of evil doctrines within Christianity based on traditions of man.
Uh.. no, it doesn't. It teaches what is important to the ancient Hebrews in Caanan, and how you described it is taken out of context, and incorrect.

The description of the Levitate marriage in the Jewish scriptures shows it is after the brother died, and by his brother only. It is not a tradition that every was adopted by Christianity, and the way that you described it does not match the reasoning behind the tradition.

Sorry, but the way you describe it makes your biological son a Mamzer, and as such, he will not be allowed to worship in the Temple in Jerusalem, nor his descendants onto 10 generations. I am sure that is not relevant to you, since he isn't Jewish, and the
Temple hasn't existed in a couple of thousand of years.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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