vessels of wrath

What would you do if?

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shnarkle
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vessels of wrath

Post #1

Post by shnarkle »

We've all known or heard of people who have spent many years of their lives dedicated to Christ and the church only to "fall away". We might wonder if they were the type who hears the word and rapidly springs into action only to later be chocked by thorns, or if they were ever saved in the first place. This isn't a "once saved always saved "question.

My question: If God were to reveal to you that you are a vessel of wrath, would you live your life any differently, how? Why or why not?

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Re: vessels of wrath

Post #11

Post by YahDough »

shnarkle wrote:
YahDough wrote:
shnarkle wrote: We've all known or heard of people who have spent many years of their lives dedicated to Christ and the church only to "fall away". We might wonder if they were the type who hears the word and rapidly springs into action only to later be chocked by thorns, or if they were ever saved in the first place. This isn't a "once saved always saved "question.

My question: If God were to reveal to you that you are a vessel of wrath, would you live your life any differently, how? Why or why not?
I'm a believer in Jesus who makes an effort to listen to the 'voice' of God.
If God were to reveal I was a vessel of wrath, I would have to find out why, plead forgiveness from God through the blood of Jesus and quit doing those things that have prompted His wrath.

Why? Because I want to be saved and be a part of God's kingdom.

I have a follow up question for you: Given that there is no chance of being a part of God's kingdom since you are a vessel of wrath, is there any other reason that you can think of to "quit doing those things that have prompted His wrath"?
I am not interested in affirming hopelessness. But for the sake of your argument I suppose I might "quit doing those things that have prompted His wrath" out of a concern about being a receiver of even more wrath. For example, I would consider a chastening punishment to be better than utter destruction. Plus an earnest desire to change can keep hope alive. Even create hope against hope.
I would assume that these things that you say prompted His wrath would be transgressions of God's laws, no? If so, do you see any other reason to keep God's laws even if you are predestined to wrath?
You're pretty much asking the same question but I might add that many of God's laws are the same as our Christian based societal laws. One might want to keep those shared laws to avoid going to jail.

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Re: vessels of wrath

Post #12

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

shnarkle wrote:The Pharisees refrained from sinful behavior, and were even notorious for their conspicuous adherence to the laws of God, this was useless to save them.
This is definitely not the case. The Pharisees by no means refrained from sinful behavior. They followed the letters of the law, but as Jesus pointed out they were still entirely sinful. Christians so often claim that you can't do "works" as entry to the Kingdom of Heaven because "The Pharisees tried and failed." The fact is, they weren't good people. They were terrible people. Evil people. Evil enough to call for the crucifixion of a man teaching that one ought to behave righteously. They did "works" as in praying, tithing, washing cups, nipping the tip, and so on, but they did NOT work righteousness nor refrain from sin. They were selfish, greedy mongrels (according to Jesus). It was their sin that hindered them from the Kingdom, it was their teaching that shut up the Kingdom to others, and it was their religiousness that hindered others from entering the Kingdom who would otherwise try.
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shnarkle
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Re: vessels of wrath

Post #13

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to YahDough]

shnarkle: Not according to Paul in his letter to the Romans.

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory"

Verse 22 is in the indicative mood which means it isn't a hypothetical statement or one in which the outcome is unknown.

shnarkle
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Re: vessels of wrath

Post #14

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 11 by YahDough]

"You're pretty much asking the same question but I might add that many of God's laws are the same as our Christian based societal laws. One might want to keep those shared laws to avoid going to jail."

shnarkle: I suppose that's enough incentive, but essentially that is no different than the incentive Israel was given to refrain from sinning as well. Paul states that for the saved believer that is done away and replaced with the enabling power of the Holy Spirit. What I find truly amazing about your responses is that you don't seem to see any value in God's laws or in keeping them other than to avoid punishment. Put another way, these laws aren't established for the purpose of putting people in jail.

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Re: vessels of wrath

Post #15

Post by shnarkle »

ElCodeMonkey wrote:
shnarkle wrote:The Pharisees refrained from sinful behavior, and were even notorious for their conspicuous adherence to the laws of God, this was useless to save them.
This is definitely not the case. The Pharisees by no means refrained from sinful behavior. They followed the letters of the law, but as Jesus pointed out they were still entirely sinful. Christians so often claim that you can't do "works" as entry to the Kingdom of Heaven because "The Pharisees tried and failed." The fact is, they weren't good people. They were terrible people. Evil people. Evil enough to call for the crucifixion of a man teaching that one ought to behave righteously. They did "works" as in praying, tithing, washing cups, nipping the tip, and so on, but they did NOT work righteousness nor refrain from sin. They were selfish, greedy mongrels (according to Jesus). It was their sin that hindered them from the Kingdom, it was their teaching that shut up the Kingdom to others, and it was their religiousness that hindered others from entering the Kingdom who would otherwise try.

shnarkle: The Pharisees refrained from sinful behavior by means of the Mosaic law and their traditions as their guide. Jesus pointed out that their adherence to the law (that would be their refraining from sinful behavior, e.g. keeping the Sabbath, circumcising their sons, refraining from stealing, tithing, etc.) wasn't enough, and would amount to nothing if they weren't "born again". If they were to continue going about establishing their own righteousness they could never be good enough to see the kingdom. I'm not saying that they weren't sinful; I'm pointing out that they were meticulous in following the law, but even they were prompt to offer sacrifice when they sinned often in a most public way. Yes, following the letter of the law refers to their actual behavior, but their actions weren't wrong, it was the reasons for their actions that were wrong. They were notoriously pious, but their motive was "the praise of men", and "to establish their own righteousness". Jesus Himself points out, "Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, THAT OBSERVE AND DO; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." Sitting in the seat of Moses means that whatever they read from the letter of the law to do you must do, but not from their traditions or interpretations. That is the distinction Jesus is making (and Paul as well).
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YahDough
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Re: vessels of wrath

Post #16

Post by YahDough »

shnarkle wrote: [Replying to YahDough]

shnarkle: Not according to Paul in his letter to the Romans.

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory"

Verse 22 is in the indicative mood which means it isn't a hypothetical statement or one in which the outcome is unknown.
Not really. Paul starts Verse 22 with: "What if......" which makes the statement hypothetical. God is the Potter. He can do what He wants with His pots.

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Re: vessels of wrath

Post #17

Post by YahDough »

shnarkle wrote: [Replying to post 11 by YahDough]
What I find truly amazing about your responses is that you don't seem to see any value in God's laws or in keeping them other than to avoid punishment. Put another way, these laws aren't established for the purpose of putting people in jail.
That's not true. I am also interested in rewards from God for living a life that pleases Him. All of God's "rules" are given to promote continuance of existence and peace with Him. I see the LORD as a concerned Parent who wants us to do the right things (with rewards) but gives us the freedom to do the wrong things (with punishments).

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Re: vessels of wrath

Post #18

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to YahDough]

"Not really. Paul starts Verse 22 with: "What if......" which makes the statement hypothetical.

shnarkle: Not in koine Greek. Unfortunately it loses something in the translation. The fact is that it is in the indicative, not the subjunctive or the optative. So it can't be a hypothetical question. Any good interlinear translation will show you that it is in the indicative. Therefore it is a fact. Q.E.D.
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" God is the Potter. He can do what He wants with His pots."

shnarkle: Yes, so true and he molds vessels of wrath to show His own glory to the vessels of mercy(vs.23).

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Re: vessels of wrath

Post #19

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 17 by YahDough]

"That's not true. I am also interested in rewards from God for living a life that pleases Him."

Shnarkle: Wow, you just did it again. It would seem that you're just in this for what you can get out of it. Well at least you're honest about it.
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All of God's "rules" are given to promote continuance of existence and peace with Him.

shnarkle: Just Him??? What about "love your neighbor as yourself"??? What about your fellow man?
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I see the LORD as a concerned Parent who wants us to do the right things

shnarkle: Yes, I agree! He wants us to live fulfilling lives with purpose.
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(with rewards)

shnarkle: Living a life within God's will is for our (and our neighbor's) benefit. The rewards begin as soon as we begin to live according to His will.
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but gives us the freedom to do the wrong things (with punishments).

shnarkle: The natural consequences of disobedience. Death isn't the immediate result; in many cases pain and suffering can be immediate. Quite often these can be the means of motivating one to refrain from sin and take God's instructions more seriously. Hence another reason for my original question.

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Re: vessels of wrath

Post #20

Post by YahDough »

shnarkle wrote: [Replying to YahDough]

"Not really. Paul starts Verse 22 with: "What if......" which makes the statement hypothetical.
shnarkle: Not in koine Greek. Unfortunately it loses something in the translation. The fact is that it is in the indicative, not the subjunctive or the optative. So it can't be a hypothetical question. Any good interlinear translation will show you that it is in the indicative. Therefore it is a fact. Q.E.D.
Things can also be gained in a translation. The KJV is authorized.
One can unwittingly make dogma out of doctrine even by going back to the original texts for retranslation.
Verse 22 as it is presented is hypothetical. Perhaps it is that way to promote mercy to those who may be experiencing hopelessness as "vessels fit for destruction".

God is the Potter. He can do what He wants with us pots.
We don't have to ask why. It even seems we are not supposed to.

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