My stance on gay marriage and why I am a hypocrite

What would you do if?

Moderator: Moderators

jessehove
Student
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:10 am

My stance on gay marriage and why I am a hypocrite

Post #1

Post by jessehove »

While I disagree with gay marriage in my theological head, my head tends to be influenced by its secular liberation:

Here is an article I wrote on why I am against gay marriage but that also makes me a hypocrite:
http://mercyandmessiah.blogspot.ca/2014 ... -i-am.html

Donray
Guru
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:25 pm
Location: CA

Post #21

Post by Donray »

Why are not Christians forcing a rapist to marry the person they raped? That is definitely in the bible.

Why the picking and choosing what believe from the bible?

jessehove
Student
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:10 am

Post #22

Post by jessehove »

It is not picking and choosing ad hoc. The Bible is not a code of laws that you exclusively follow or you don’t. It is trying to discern what we are supposed to do by looking at where the Holy Spirit has worked in the church before hand, and what it is calling us toward now. It is a matter at looking the whole of the Scripture and finding common threads that God has made apparent in the text. For instance in marriage we Jesus repeat and validate Man clinging to Woman in Genesis. In that same passage Jesus talks about how divorce was allowed for a time because peoples hearts were hard (Matthew 19). Divorce at the time was a better option then what marriage would have been like. This is where I would place your the Rapist marrying their victim verse. Because at the time she would have lost her whole economic value if he did not marry her (Woman were not seen through the lens of personhood but as a economic good at this point in history). It is horrible to think about what this time would have been like, but God allows human beings their freedom to sin even as he is pushing us toward something better. Further images of Marriage as a bride to her husband continue on in the ideal of Scripture all the way to the very end of time Where Revelation 21:2I says we will see a "Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.� It is not about picking and choosing but looking for the continuity in the Canon of the whole Bible

Donray
Guru
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:25 pm
Location: CA

Post #23

Post by Donray »

jessehove wrote: It is not picking and choosing ad hoc. The Bible is not a code of laws that you exclusively follow or you don’t. It is trying to discern what we are supposed to do by looking at where the Holy Spirit has worked in the church before hand, and what it is calling us toward now. It is a matter at looking the whole of the Scripture and finding common threads that God has made apparent in the text. For instance in marriage we Jesus repeat and validate Man clinging to Woman in Genesis. In that same passage Jesus talks about how divorce was allowed for a time because peoples hearts were hard (Matthew 19). Divorce at the time was a better option then what marriage would have been like. This is where I would place your the Rapist marrying their victim verse. Because at the time she would have lost her whole economic value if he did not marry her (Woman were not seen through the lens of personhood but as a economic good at this point in history). It is horrible to think about what this time would have been like, but God allows human beings their freedom to sin even as he is pushing us toward something better. Further images of Marriage as a bride to her husband continue on in the ideal of Scripture all the way to the very end of time Where Revelation 21:2I says we will see a "Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.� It is not about picking and choosing but looking for the continuity in the Canon of the whole Bible
You actually proved my point about picking and choosing what you want to believe from the bible. I said Christian pick and choose and gave an example where God/Jesus said a rapist must marry the raped. And you come back with something that says divorce is not allowed and I guess you go to hell if you divorcé except a few reasons. Am I correct that one goes to hell if divorce is what you are pointing out? Therefore Catholics are the only Christians that follow the law? Or God/Jesus does not enforce this rule/law?

You failed to address marrying a rapist. Why don’t you address what was written?

jessehove
Student
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:10 am

Post #24

Post by jessehove »

I did address your question. Did you read it? I can address it more specifically if you didn't put up what I was putting down..

Even in the most obscene instances of our injustice God tries to make the world a little more just. In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 God commands that if a man rapes a woman, he must marry her. From our perspective today this is seen as a horrific injustice. Yet in the historical context of the ancient scripture a woman’s virginity was her central possession, and it would be more of an injustice for her to lose it without the promise and protection of marriage.Despite how unjust we may make society, God is always looking for a way to bring justice, however limited that justice may be in order to allow us our freedom to choose to our own path.

Also there is nothing in the Bible about people going to hell if they get divorced. Only that divorce is wrong. Simply being a person who makes mistakes doesn't send you to hell. You should read the Bible more, and not ad hoc pick verses to hate about it.

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle

Post #25

Post by Danmark »

jessehove wrote: I did address your question. Did you read it? I can address it more specifically if you didn't put up what I was putting down..

Even in the most obscene instances of our injustice God tries to make the world a little more just. In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 God commands that if a man rapes a woman, he must marry her. From our perspective today this is seen as a horrific injustice. Yet in the historical context of the ancient scripture a woman’s virginity was her central possession, and it would be more of an injustice for her to lose it without the promise and protection of marriage.Despite how unjust we may make society, God is always looking for a way to bring justice, however limited that justice may be in order to allow us our freedom to choose to our own path.

Also there is nothing in the Bible about people going to hell if they get divorced. Only that divorce is wrong. Simply being a person who makes mistakes doesn't send you to hell. You should read the Bible more, and not ad hoc pick verses to hate about it.
[emphasis mine]

I think this brings up an excellent point, that the scriptures need to be viewed in light of the cultural and temporal context in which they were written.
However, more fundamentally, this same point demonstrates they were not written by a timeless, eternal God who understood universal moral values, but written by men who were locked into their own time and culture and wrote accordingly.

This issue is one of the very powerful pieces of evidence that demonstrates the human origin of the Bible; that a universal, all knowing deity had nothing to do with it.

jessehove
Student
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:10 am

Post #26

Post by jessehove »

I don’t see how you can come to that conclusion. But hey to each their own.

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle

Post #27

Post by Danmark »

jessehove wrote: I don’t see how you can come to that conclusion. But hey to each their own.
And I see my conclusion as inescapable for the reasons given.
Your single line advances no argument or basis for your position. This is simple denial without analysis.

Donray
Guru
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:25 pm
Location: CA

Post #28

Post by Donray »

jessehove wrote: I did address your question. Did you read it? I can address it more specifically if you didn't put up what I was putting down..

Even in the most obscene instances of our injustice God tries to make the world a little more just. In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 God commands that if a man rapes a woman, he must marry her. From our perspective today this is seen as a horrific injustice. Yet in the historical context of the ancient scripture a woman’s virginity was her central possession, and it would be more of an injustice for her to lose it without the promise and protection of marriage.Despite how unjust we may make society, God is always looking for a way to bring justice, however limited that justice may be in order to allow us our freedom to choose to our own path.

Also there is nothing in the Bible about people going to hell if they get divorced. Only that divorce is wrong. Simply being a person who makes mistakes doesn't send you to hell. You should read the Bible more, and not ad hoc pick verses to hate about it.
First off, you are doing it again. Picking and choosing what you want to follow from the bible. Why don’t you tell me where in the bible it says that Deuteronomy 22:28-29 only applies to sometime in the past that first off you failed to say what time frame it applies and where in the bible God says that things only apply to when they were written by man and has nothing to do with an eternal God that would write for all times.

Second, I thought God provided objective moral values. I guess you don’t believe this since you don’t think that your god punished anyone that does obey these objective moral value. One cannot have an objective moral value like divorce in bad and then offer no punishment if the moral rule is not followed. Again, pick and choose what to follow and what to ignore. Granted, you seem like every person that breaks laws to justify your actions. That does not mean you are not picking and choosing from the bible, you are only justifying your chooses. Again, your chose to ignore that divorce is bad and a rapist needs to marry the reaped.

For example, where in the bible does god ever say that certain things will not apply at certain times in history?

I guess the ten commandments are also old history and don’t apply today? After all they apply to only Jews and only while Mosses was alive.

You and almost all Christians’ pick and choose from the bible.

jessehove
Student
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:10 am

Post #29

Post by jessehove »

Why don’t you tell me where in the bible it says that Deuteronomy 22:28-29 only applies to sometime in the past that first off you failed to say what time frame it applies and where in the bible God says that things only apply to when they were written by man and has nothing to do with an eternal God that would write for all times.
I mentioned this before but I will be more thorough in my example in Matthew 19.

Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?�

4 “Haven’t you read,� he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.�

7 “Why then,� they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?�

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.�

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.�

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.�

What Jesus is suggesting then is that there is a way to read Scripture where there is an ideal that we are striving for. IE: Paradise, Heaven on Earth etc. but in the midst of this ideal there are times when man is deeply in Sin. In the these times God works with our bad choices to try and bring some good out of it. That doesn't negate the ideal, but alludes to it.

"One cannot have an objective moral value like divorce in bad and then offer no punishment if the moral rule is not followed."

Yes, Actually God does this often. The whole point of the book of Hosea is that Israel deserves serve punishment yet despite their faithfulness God continues to be faithful to them. Hosea marrying Gomer the prostitute is a living metaphor for God's love for us. We may often see ourselves and God as the enemy, but God has never been an enemy to us.

jessehove
Student
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:10 am

Post #30

Post by jessehove »

Another classic example of Jesus' interpretive framework is Jesus summarizing the the the law and the prophets into two commands.

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?�

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.�

Christians are not simply ad hoc picking and choosing verses. But following the interpretive lens that Christ has given us.

2 Corinthians 3

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Post Reply