Naturalizing the supernatural

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Derrrpp
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Naturalizing the supernatural

Post #1

Post by Derrrpp »

What are the benefits and ramifications of providing a sound explanation for the miracles of the Bible? Assume that some theory at least partially increases the plausibility without increasing the probability, (remind that magic and supernatural has always been associated with trained priests or magicians and not common folk /trigger mechanisms). While it may be wonderful to actually feel the paradigm shift to a more natural tone not everything is rosy. Now you have naturalistic 'data' that can be extrapolated into areas where there is no real divine revelation and blind alleys for false prophets that were merely 'following the data'. Now you have partially explained or still unexplained areas that direct Christians away from the physical embodiment scenario towards the 'new' answers which can only be ascertained by a true second coming. While it might be interesting to join our kin in Judaism alongside the third architect of the Temple it undermines or usurps the Words of Salvation. Worst of all is that the potential is there to inadvertently confirm the actions of the Egyptian priests (sticks to snakes)and hypocritically include sorcery in the explanatory methodology even though that would provide for a separate outside layer of 'evidence' to stand in support of the validity of the miracles as well as the mysteries of Egyptian accomplishment upon which much speculation has been cast.. So can we by the language used separate 'sorcery' without appearing biased to our cause while at the same time controlling the rhetoric around such an answers as Christians responsible for the effects on individual souls for these interpretations...(to much wailing and gnashing of teeth at such control). Is the removal of doubt to those who might benefit worth the undermining risk? Are we charged to proceed anyway based on how we ourselves were brought forth out of the mire..based on the one chance we each have to get in? Should such a thing be made commonly available and by whom?

Derrrpp
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Post #2

Post by Derrrpp »

Update: I have been researching the Bible usage of words to describe sorcery and feel that there is a reasonable path thru kashaph, pharmakeia,magueo,et al to compartmentalize the negative implications, ideas which lead up to the appearance and non-rejection of the three Magi at Christ's birth. Thus we can consolidate the following:

All non Biblical staff/rod/wand waving sticks to snakes, birds, rabbits, coins, et al of non manipulative magic (ie the snake can bite you the summoner)
and that provides a secondary course of evidence of equal value and age in all other ancient literature and that is circumstantially sufficient to complement any Biblical account.
So..
Penn and Teller and Harry Potter and Walt Disney find an audience in the modern age hundreds of yrs after 'proving' that it is bunk???? How has magic and wand waving survived so long(4000 yrs to Exodus) and unchanged as MERELY a form of entertainment value only???? Given the long exhaustive list of entertainers that have gone the way of the dodo as well as forms of art and music why???? Do more Christians attend Las Vegas shows and disney films et al becuase we are more willing to be deceived??? Is this story of magic equal to the former and also not expelled from human attention by science? ...
And as i stated in the first post...magicians and priests are specially trained professionals(actuators) obviously lacking the modern era. Given the example of the apostles, witnessing miracles yet failing to duplicate we find the missing element is post resurrection imbuing with the Holy Spirit as required to duplicate and surpass the work of Christ. So, like Peter, though my belief may allow the required faith, my training my yet be incomplete, and without the direction and support of the Holy Spirit I cant actually perform on demand as requested and sink. Surely without these parameters in place I would simply crash and burn...why be promoted to captain a sinking ship???

paarsurrey1
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Re: Naturalizing the supernatural

Post #3

Post by paarsurrey1 »

[Replying to post 1 by Derrrpp]
What are the benefits and ramifications of providing a sound explanation for the miracles of the Bible?
Please mention the miracles Jesus performed and are mentioned in the NT Bible for an appropriate answer for each one of them. Will one, please?
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paarsurrey1
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Post #4

Post by paarsurrey1 »

Naturalizing the supernatural

Whatever happens as per the rules and principles set by One-True-God is natural, so in this context nothing is supernatural. We may not understand a phenomenon at a particular point of time, yet it is natural as it happens as per the rules and principles set by One-True-God:

[6:58] Say: ‘I take my stand on a clear evidence from my Lord and you reject it. That which you desire to be hastened is not in my power. The decision rests with none but Allah. He explains the truth, and He is Best of judges.’
[6:59] Say: ‘If that which you desire to be hastened were in my power, surely the matter would be decided between me and you. And Allah knows best the unjust.’
[6:60] And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them but He. And He knows whatsoever is in the land and in the sea. And there falls not a leaf but He knows it; nor is there a grain in the deep darkness of the earth, nor anything green or dry, but is recorded in a clear Book*.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/s ... 6&verse=59
*set rule/principle/order

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JJ50
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Post #5

Post by JJ50 »

I am of the opinion there is a natural explanation for everything. Even if we don't have it now, I think science will discover it in time. I speak as one who has probably had more experience of what some would term the 'supernatural' throughout my 68 years on this planet.

paarsurrey1
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Post #6

Post by paarsurrey1 »

JJ50 wrote: I am of the opinion there is a natural explanation for everything. Even if we don't have it now, I think science will discover it in time. I speak as one who has probably had more experience of what some would term the 'supernatural' throughout my 68 years on this planet.
So, one agrees with:

"Naturalizing the supernatural

Whatever happens as per the rules and principles set by One-True-God is natural, so in this context nothing is supernatural. We may not understand a phenomenon at a particular point of time, yet it is natural as it happens as per the rules and principles set by One-True-God"

Right, please?
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Post #7

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 6 by paarsurrey1]

That's correct. But the OTG is not proven.

Even if the OTG is proven we might call natural as causal actions of inanimate objects.

I guess there should be a distinction between god did it and nature did it or we did it.

In Islam God is will and so I think you believe that God does cause everything?
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paarsurrey1
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Post #8

Post by paarsurrey1 »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 6 by paarsurrey1]

That's correct. But the OTG is not proven.

Even if the OTG is proven we might call natural as causal actions of inanimate objects.

I guess there should be a distinction between god did it and nature did it or we did it.

In Islam God is will and so I think you believe that God does cause everything?
Nature is not a being, it is deaf and dumb, it cannot cause anything and cannot un-cause anything. Everything that is not artificial, it is creation of God and is bound under the physical and other factors as designed by God. Right, please?
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marco
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Post #9

Post by marco »

paarsurrey1 wrote:

Everything that is not artificial, it is creation of God and is bound under the physical and other factors as designed by God. Right, please?
Regards

Absolutely correct if one accepts there are gods or a God. Egyptians, Greeks, Romans .... would have agreed, but painted a different God. The easiest explanation for what we have is a giant made it all.

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Post #10

Post by Kevin Cross »

[Replying to post 5 by JJ50]

There is probably natural explanations for most everything but somethings only God knows. For example, 1 Kings 18:45 says "Meanwhile, the sky grew black with clouds, the wind rose, a heavy rain started falling and Ahab rode off to Jezreel." In Matthew 8:26 we see Jesus calming a storm dispite Peter's lack of faith. The way I think about it, in general, is God is energy and energy is God, where ever it is found in the universe. That's how God can make the maraculus happen.

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