Abortion due to a complication

[fonso]

If your wife was beaten, raped, and was gotten pregnant by a rapist, would you abort the child? Or would you have her give birth?

I'm undecided. Part of me has learned to value life, that perhaps I would agree for the child to be born, only to be given up to an orphanage or some place similar.... although it wasn't too long ago either that I would have instantantly agreed to an abortion.

[Greatest I Am]

The fetus receives his, her soul at conception

Did you make this up? I can't remember anything in the bible suggesting that the authors had any knowledge of 'conception' in the medical sense. If sperm and egg happen to meet in a toilet (I know it is quite unlikely) is there a 'soul' installed in that, too? If so, who installs it?
Also, since more than half of all conceptions (among humans) end in abortion (most often by the mothers body, and often without her knowledge), isn't this enough to demonstrate to you that your god doesn't care so much about abortion? I mean if your god is real, he has personally handled more abortions than any human...

so in a sense, it goes to heaven at the time of abortion death. The same as all of us upon our death.

This is what is called a 'story'. Nothing more. If you have any facts to contribute (such as the volume, mass or colour of the 'soul') then please do, but lets not treat your stories as if they are true without some scrutiny.

In a moral sense I treat these fetuses, people in development, the same way that I treat people that have developed to some higher form since birth.

So you have no problem enslaving a woman by telling her that she is a killer if she has a morning after pill? This is your moral sense? I bet it comes from the church and not your own mind.

This is the logical thing to do. We would not kill the older version, then why would it be OK to kill the younger version?

You keep treating the developing fetus as if it were a person whose rights take precedence over the rights of the mother. That is not the logical thing to do, and I am going to make another guess here - you are not very likely to get pregnant because you are a man.

Rape is an act of violence. Why should our response also be an act of violence to both the perpetrator who deserves it and also to a small victim who does not?

The 'small victim' you refer to is not a victim at all. In fact, if the rapist is the father, then the fetus was not in existence when the crime was committed. The only victim in your little story is reason.

It is true that the fetus is the product of the crime, but this does not take away it's value as a potential human. For all we know, and the stats run at about 50% of all women are abused in some form over their life, half of us could be the product of an abuse.

As to the demographic shape of Heaven and the souls within, again I can only offer anecdotal evidence, not anything you can see.

That is all anyone can offer when it comes to supernatural realities.

Regards
DL

[Darren]

It is true that the fetus is the product of the crime, but this does not take away it's value as a potential human.

Speaking of 'potential humans', how carefully do you steward your ejaculate? You know if you just toss it out (sorry for the pun) you are killing millions of (potential humans) sperm.
For that matter, the female body discards unused eggs, once a month (approximately). What kind of jerk created woman to destroy so many potential humans?
I would say that it is obvious that a creator, if he exists, cares nothing for potential humans.

[Greatest I Am]

It is true that the fetus is the product of the crime, but this does not take away it's value as a potential human.

Speaking of 'potential humans', how carefully do you steward your ejaculate? You know if you just toss it out (sorry for the pun) you are killing millions of (potential humans) sperm.
For that matter, the female body discards unused eggs, once a month (approximately). What kind of jerk created woman to destroy so many potential humans?
I would say that it is obvious that a creator, if he exists, cares nothing for potential humans.

Potential human only happens after the meeting of egg and sperm and the acquisition of the soul.

If God micro managed our lives we would probably complain about it.

He started things off Perfectly so there is no need for micro management. It is to man to create whatever change we want.

It is our world after all.

Regards
DL

[Darren]

Potential human only happens after the meeting of egg and sperm and the acquisition of the soul.

The soul is an invented thing - like fiction - until you offer evidence for it.
Since there is no soul, there is no 'potential human' to worry about.

If God micro managed our lives we would probably complain about it.

If your god existed, he would likely torture you for eternity for complaining.

He started things off Perfectly so there is no need for micro management. It is to man to create whatever change we want.

It is our world after all.

Regards
DL

If he started perfectly, why are there children born with severe defects, such as autism spectrum disorders?
Why did he have to come back and get rid of sin so many times (all utter failures, according to the churches, by the way). He made the great flood to get rid of sin, then impregnated that young virgin girl, and tortured and killed their child to get rid of sin.
What competence! He should be in municipal government!

[Greatest I Am]

Potential human only happens after the meeting of egg and sperm and the acquisition of the soul.

The soul is an invented thing - like fiction - until you offer evidence for it.
Since there is no soul, there is no 'potential human' to worry about.

If God micro managed our lives we would probably complain about it.

If your god existed, he would likely torture you for eternity for complaining.

He started things off Perfectly so there is no need for micro management. It is to man to create whatever change we want.

It is our world after all.

Regards
DL

If he started perfectly, why are there children born with severe defects, such as autism spectrum disorders?
Why did he have to come back and get rid of sin so many times (all utter failures, according to the churches, by the way). He made the great flood to get rid of sin, then impregnated that young virgin girl, and tortured and killed their child to get rid of sin.
What competence! He should be in municipal government!

I do not read the Bible literally and ask Christians to explain many of the inconsistencies that you mention.

They do not answer very well and do not usually like my version of reality.

They see God back sliding away from His Perfect beginnings. I do not.

As some scientists say, if things were different, we would not be here to question the systems.

This is why God created our systems Perfect.
As to the woes and evils that you mention, Genesis states that without the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we could not know the mind of God.

If we got rid of good and evil there is almost nothing that we could discuss or do.

Try to find a topic or issue that we cannot apply good and evil to. It is almost impossible.

We need these qualifiers.

Regards
DL

[Darren]

I do not read the Bible literally and ask Christians to explain many of the inconsistencies that you mention.

The most reasonable answer is that the bible is simply a collection of stories as told by men. No god involved.

As to the woes and evils that you mention, Genesis states that without the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we could not know the mind of God.

Oh, look. In nearly the next breath you quote the bible.
It is no more an authority on the world than any other fiction book.
If you can let go of the ridiculous notion that god is real, and he commissioned the bible (a ridiculously bad book), you may start to see the world and the real beauty in it.

[Greatest I Am]

I do not read the Bible literally and ask Christians to explain many of the inconsistencies that you mention.

The most reasonable answer is that the bible is simply a collection of stories as told by men. No god involved.

As to the woes and evils that you mention, Genesis states that without the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we could not know the mind of God.

Oh, look. In nearly the next breath you quote the bible.
It is no more an authority on the world than any other fiction book.
If you can let go of the ridiculous notion that god is real, and he commissioned the bible (a ridiculously bad book), you may start to see the world and the real beauty in it.

I see the world as more than beautiful; I see it as Perfect. Created by a Perfect God.

I see the Bible as the best that was known at the time of it's writing. Slightly outdated for today but still very good at showing both the notion of Christ as well as the notions of the Antichrist. That is why it is of such value. From it's point of view it is the tree of good and evil.

Regards
DL

[Darren]

I do not read the Bible literally and ask Christians to explain many of the inconsistencies that you mention.

The most reasonable answer is that the bible is simply a collection of stories as told by men. No god involved.

As to the woes and evils that you mention, Genesis states that without the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we could not know the mind of God.

Oh, look. In nearly the next breath you quote the bible.
It is no more an authority on the world than any other fiction book.
If you can let go of the ridiculous notion that god is real, and he commissioned the bible (a ridiculously bad book), you may start to see the world and the real beauty in it.

I see the world as more than beautiful; I see it as Perfect. Created by a Perfect God.

I see the Bible as the best that was known at the time of it's writing. Slightly outdated for today but still very good at showing both the notion of Christ as well as the notions of the Antichrist. That is why it is of such value. From it's point of view it is the tree of good and evil.

Regards
DL

I guess since you worship a god who created so much evil, you have to call it perfect. If you were caught criticizing him, you might end up getting some of his wrath.
I wish you were free of your chains, but I think you can't even acknowledge them for fear of the god you believe in.

I don't mind if you want to stay deluded, but don't think of me as part of your delusion. (if you want us to be able to have meaningful discourse, that is)

[Greatest I Am]

I do not read the Bible literally and ask Christians to explain many of the inconsistencies that you mention.

The most reasonable answer is that the bible is simply a collection of stories as told by men. No god involved.

As to the woes and evils that you mention, Genesis states that without the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we could not know the mind of God.

Oh, look. In nearly the next breath you quote the bible.
It is no more an authority on the world than any other fiction book.
If you can let go of the ridiculous notion that god is real, and he commissioned the bible (a ridiculously bad book), you may start to see the world and the real beauty in it.

I see the world as more than beautiful; I see it as Perfect. Created by a Perfect God.

I see the Bible as the best that was known at the time of it's writing. Slightly outdated for today but still very good at showing both the notion of Christ as well as the notions of the Antichrist. That is why it is of such value. From it's point of view it is the tree of good and evil.

Regards
DL

I guess since you worship a god who created so much evil, you have to call it perfect. If you were caught criticizing him, you might end up getting some of his wrath.
I wish you were free of your chains, but I think you can't even acknowledge them for fear of the god you believe in.

I don't mind if you want to stay deluded, but don't think of me as part of your delusion. (if you want us to be able to have meaningful discourse, that is)

Have you seen this?

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

I buy into this and view the Bible as a work of philosophy more than a work of spirituality.

It is no better or no worse than the 8 other Bibles that I have read.

Most of the bad things that you can say about it I have probably said at one time of another. This does not take away it’s usefulness as a tool of philosophy so let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Your beef seem to center around evil.

Consider that without either of good or evil as qualifiers, there is almost nothing that can be discussed or debated.

I am all for meaningful discourse and embrace good and evil as the tools that they are in forming judgments and bringing me closer to the thinking of God Himself.

If you want proof of the usefulness of this tool, just try to come up with a topic that we can discuss meaningfully without using it. No challenge is meant here. I have failed myself in this quest.

Regards
DL

[Beto]

I do not read the Bible literally and ask Christians to explain many of the inconsistencies that you mention.

The most reasonable answer is that the bible is simply a collection of stories as told by men. No god involved.

As to the woes and evils that you mention, Genesis states that without the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we could not know the mind of God.

Oh, look. In nearly the next breath you quote the bible.
It is no more an authority on the world than any other fiction book.
If you can let go of the ridiculous notion that god is real, and he commissioned the bible (a ridiculously bad book), you may start to see the world and the real beauty in it.

I see the world as more than beautiful; I see it as Perfect. Created by a Perfect God.

I see the Bible as the best that was known at the time of it's writing. Slightly outdated for today but still very good at showing both the notion of Christ as well as the notions of the Antichrist. That is why it is of such value. From it's point of view it is the tree of good and evil.

Regards
DL

I guess since you worship a god who created so much evil, you have to call it perfect. If you were caught criticizing him, you might end up getting some of his wrath.
I wish you were free of your chains, but I think you can't even acknowledge them for fear of the god you believe in.

I don't mind if you want to stay deluded, but don't think of me as part of your delusion. (if you want us to be able to have meaningful discourse, that is)

Have you seen this?

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

I buy into this and view the Bible as a work of philosophy more than a work of spirituality.

It is no better or no worse than the 8 other Bibles that I have read.

Most of the bad things that you can say about it I have probably said at one time of another. This does not take away it’s usefulness as a tool of philosophy so let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Your beef seem to center around evil.

Consider that without either of good or evil as qualifiers, there is almost nothing that can be discussed or debated.

I am all for meaningful discourse and embrace good and evil as the tools that they are in forming judgments and bringing me closer to the thinking of God Himself.

If you want proof of the usefulness of this tool, just try to come up with a topic that we can discuss meaningfully without using it. No challenge is meant here. I have failed myself in this quest.

Regards
DL

You must have fast-forwarded part 1 of the movie...